Slavic Nationalist Forum » General Discussion » Skenderbeg
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Skenderbeg
Post by srbin on Nov 7, 2006, 2:40am

For those who do not know about this even though i am sure most of you know its important to note that serbs also wrote the albnians national anthem


n Albania, a prince of Serb origin, George Kastriotovoitch Skenderbeg, fought the Turks with great valour as the prince of Albania.

Count Leopold Ranke
History of the Servian People
1848
Leipzig, Germany

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QUOTE #2:

"...in the time of national awakening for the Albanians - Skenderbeg was as much of a Serb as he was an Albanian...in him there was much Serb blood. His mother Vojislava was a Serb princess and the names of most of Skenderbeg's sisters were Serb...
Mara
Jela
Angelina
Vlajica
and his brothers were:
Stanisa
Konstantin
Skenderbeg's sister Mara was married to Stefan Crnojevic, lord of Zeta, who with the Zetans helped Skenderbeg for 24 years in the wars against the Turks. According to the Catholic priest of Shkodra Marin Barleci, the Turks unearhed Skenderbeg's remains and distributed them amongst themsleves 'as souveniers'.

Paul Rovinski
Russian emmisary and historian
quoted from: "Glas Crnogorca"
1899

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QUOTE #3:

"Skenderbeg's family was of Serb descent" and married to Danica daughter of Vojvoda Golem. (golem is an old Slav word, meaning "great".)

L. Defenbah
"Zeine Familie War Slavishen Ursprungs"
Brlin, Germany
1895

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QUOTE #4:

The Catholic Albanian priest Marini Barleci says that Skenderbeg wore Serb clothing and wrote in 'Serb letters and Italian language' because the illiterate Albanians at that time could only write in Greek or Serb just as Skenderbeg "carried all discussions in the Serb language".

Kacic Miosic (Croatian scribe)
17th Century

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QUOTE #5:

"Skenderbeg, a personally brave man was of Serb descent and was so useful, that he was respected by the Albanians, as well. He was the son of Ivan Kastrioti. His mother was Vojislava, daughter of the Prince of Polog"


Teodoro Spanduci 16th century Italian
quoted by: P. Rovinski
see: above source for Mr. Rovinski

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QUOTE #6:


Biography of Skenderbeg in Serbian language published in Budapest in 1828 by a Hungarian: Josip Milovuk


Biography of Skenderbeg in Serbian language published in Belgrade in 1848 by a Croatian: Andrija Kacic Miosic


Biography of Skenderbeg in Serbian language published in Novi Sad in 1855 by the Serb Popovic brothers

The only book about Skenderbeg written by an Albanian before the World War I was written by Catholic Albanian priest Marin Barleci who is quoted by Paul Rovinski. As shown above - even M. Barleci an Albanian designates Skenderbeg a a Serb and not an Albanian at all.

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KASTRIOTI FAMILY CANNOT BE OF ALBANIAN ORIGIN!!!

ALBANIANS DID NOT ARRIVE IN KASTORIA (ACTUALLY A REGION GREEK MACEDONIA) UNTIL 1380s


Kastoria city first appears in history during a period of Bulgarian incursions which were successfully repulsed in 1018. It was captured by the Normans in 1081 and liberated soon afterwards by the emperor Alexios I Komnenos. Armed forces of Bulgarians and from the neighbouring state of Epirus and the empire of Nicaea were active in Kastoria and its vicinity during the 13th century. In the next century (14th century; 1300s) the city was occupied first by the Serbs, then by the Albanians and finally, in 1386, by the Turks.
History of Kastoria

Quote:
The nationalist writers needed to do nothing more than provide [Skenderbeg] with a national significance and some embellishment, subjecting him to the laboratory that serves to transform history into myth. As with most myths, his figure and his deeds became a mixture of historical facts, truths and half-truths, inventions and folklore… For 19th century Albanians, a majority of whom had adhered to the faith of Skenderbeg’s Muslim enemies, the religious dimension needed to be avoided. Consequently, Skenderbeg became simply the national hero of all Albanians, the embodiment of the myth of ‘continuous resistance’ against their numerous foes over the centuries.

Pirro Misha
Invention of Nationalism: Myth and Amnesia

Quoted from:
Albanian Identities: Myth and History
Edited by: Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers & Bernd J. Fischer
Page: 43
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7681/faqe_43.jpg



According to Albanian Pirro Misha, Skenderbeg, as Albanians know him or think they know him, is nothing more than a myth: a mixture of historical facts, truths and half-truths, inventions and folklore… The Albanian nationalist elites have turned Skenderbeg into the basis for the myth of ‘continuous resistance’. In fact, there was no ‘continuous resistance’ by the Albanians. There is only the betrayal of Skenderbeg by their conversion to the faith of Skenderbeg’s Muslim enemies. The religious dimension needed to be avoided to serve a basis for control of the Christian Albanians by the Muslim Albanian nationalist elites. Skenderbeg’s identity was completely hijacked and along with it, Albanian Christianity.

In Part 1 of Project Perpjekja, there was much discussion about Albanian nationalist elites. One more thing should be observed: the Albanian nationalist elites are always, almost as a rule, Muslim or ‘ex-Muslim.’ The Prizrenites were all Muslims and so was the Enverist ruling circle (Enver Hoxha, Mehmet Shehu, Qemal Stafa, Ramiz Alija, Ismail Kadare); so are the KLA. These nationalist elites have caused Albanians a lot of suffering. Zogu took up the spirit of the League of Prizren and he robbed the country; the Enverists did their damage through cultural isolation, the KLA have turned ‘free’ Kosovo into a cesspool of AIDS and prostitution.

Fatos Lubonja, another insider into the Albanian academic scene, describes how elements of Skenderbeg’s biography were manipulated by the Albanian nationalist elites:

Quote:
The central figure around whom the mythology of Albanian national romanticism was created is Skenderbeg… He is a very ambivalent figure, having fought against the Turks but at the same time having a Turkish name and title. The fact that he changed religions…fitted a very important historical construct created by one of the famous men of Albanian renaissance, Vaso Pasha, a Catholic who had served the Turkish Empire, wrote ‘The religion of the Albanians is Albanianism.’

Fatos Lubonja
Between the Glory of a Virtual World & the Misery of a Real World

Quoted from:
Albanian Identities: Myth and History
Edited by: Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers & Bernd J. Fischer
Page: 91
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7681/faqe_91.jpg



Lubonja says that the central figure around whom the mythology of Albanian national romanticism was created is Skenderbeg.

First it is important to mention that the historical construct under discussion is the myth of ‘continuous resistance.’ It is also the myth of ‘religious indifference’ embodied in such false mottos, as ‘The religion of the Albanians is Albanianism’ that is in question. What kind of people approaches their ethnicity with the same blind faith that one would approach religion? Dangerous people who cannot be reasoned with. This famous Albanian motto implies a fanatical understanding of themselves as an ethnic group. Any ethnic group that has something like that as its national motto is immune from introspection and higher thought. This is something that every Albanian should devote a lot of thought to. Part 3 will be devoted to this myth of ‘religious indifference.’

We return to Lubonja for more insight:

Quote:
These are the basic myth that nourished ideology. Every Albanian educated in the Albanian schools after 1912, if asked about his country would recount these fundamental myths without being able to distinguish legend from history. This is the mythology of the generation, educated under Zog – which participated in the resistance against the Italian and German occupation…. The champion of Christianity was a most appropriate hero because he was also the hero of the Christian Western World.

These are the basic myths that nourished Albanian nationalistic ideology…

Fatos Lubonja
Between the Glory of a Virtual World & the Misery of a Real World

Quoted from:
Albanian Identities: Myth and History
Edited by: Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers & Bernd J. Fischer
Page: 93
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7681/faqe_93.jpg



Aside from showing that Skenderbeg was opportunistically selected as the main Albanian hero, Lubonja also says that Albanians cannot tell reality from fantasy, truth from myth. Not only because the nationalist elites have lied to them but because these elites have imposed rigid paradigms like ‘the religion of the Albanians is Albaniansm.’ - these paradigms naturally create mechanisms in the Albanian mind that instinctively inhibit objective thought. What else are these mechanisms supposed to do? Nothing. If your ethnicity is your religion, you cannot approach it objectively. It is a specifically Albanian problem. No other ethnic group, including the Serbs, has this kind of motto; thus no other nation is hampered by the paradigms and mechanisms that come with it. Thus no other nation is prone to these kinds of criticisms.

What started out as a convenient lie to unify a divided population worked - but it carried with it the price of stifling clear thinking because it necessarily meant assimilating a lie. This motto lie laid the foundations for Enver’s North-Korea style isolationism. It worked in Albania whereas it never would have worked anywhere else in Europe after WWII because Albanians believed lies long before Enver came along. Lubonja says: “Every Albanian educated in the Albanian schools after 1912, if asked about his country would recount these fundamental myths without being able to distinguish legend from history.” In Part 1, Lubonja, Misha and other scholars showed that the lies go all the way back to Prizren, 1878.

With regard to Skenderbeg, Albanians have another problem besides being unable tell reality from fantasy, truth from myth. Serbophobia is the origin of contemporary Albanian nationalism. Skenderbeg betrayed the Turks at the battle of Nis. Rather than attack the Christian Serbs, Skenderbeg had a change of heart in Serbia. Below, Fatos Lubonja describes how the ex-Muslim elites tried to reconcile the myth they had created about Skenderbeg with the Albanians’ religious and political reality…

Quote:
there was an attempt in some circles to exalt the Albanians’ Muslim identity on the grounds that those Albanians who became Muslim were the only true Albanians – arguing that the Islamic religion was the strongest factor in the survival of the Albanians… Some even put forth the theory that Skenderbeg should not be the national hero because he betrayed the Turks by serving the Christians.

…the old myths of national romanticism like that of Skenderbeg and ‘the religion of the Albanians is Albanianism’ remain the dominant mythologies in Albanian cultural and political life today.

Fatos Lubonja
Between the Glory of a Virtual World & the Misery of a Real World

Quoted from:
Albanian Identities: Myth and History
Edited by: Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers & Bernd J. Fischer
Page: 102
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7681/faqe_102.jpg


Even after reading the entire book, Albanian Identities: Myth and History including all parts dealing with Skenderbeg, the reader still doesn’t know exactly what parts of the Albanian image of Skenderbeg is really myth. The authors are vague in this book but they nevertheless inform us with facts from which we may conveniently proceed into the final half of this presentation. At one point, Lubonja correctly mentions that Skenderbeg never liberated all Albanian lands because his attempt to liberate Berat failed. Lubonja also observed that Skenderbeg’s domain never included Kosovo. This probably implies that there were few Albanians in Kosovo in his time. Skenderbeg also never fought the Serbs. In fact, as mentioned above, he betrayed the Turks rather than participate in the slaughter and occupation of the Serbian of Nis.

We turn again to Lubonja, this time from an interview he did with the right wing, Muslim Sarajevo daily Dani:

Quote:
Not long ago, for example, I wrote of myths and mentioned Skenderbeg and the Battle of Kosovo. I told of how the Albanians have forgotten that Skenderbeg was a Slav. I was attacked by Ismail Kadare, incensed at how I could possibly say that Skenderbeg was a Slav and that the history and culture of Albanians is on the level of Serbs.
That's the way it is with our culture, which is mythomaniac, national-communist, romantic, self-glorifying. You can't say anything objective without people getting angry. The Albanians are a people who still dream. That is what they are like in their conversations, their literature...In light of Hoxha and 'pyramid schemes, Albanians are a people who still dream. That's just the way they are...
Fatos Lubonja
famous Albanian dissident
http://www.bhdani.com/arhiva/151/t1516.htm


Clearly, it seems that stating that Skenderbeg is anything but Albanian is dangerous. It is well known that Skenderbeg’s mother was Vojislava was the daughter of the Serb ruler of Polog. But this does not make Skenderbeg Serbian.

What does make Skenderbeg Serbian is the work of over a dozen West European genealogists one whom is a descendant of Skenderbeg and a bearer of both of his last names; he is Nobile Loris Castriota-Skenderbegh.


[quote]
http://www.sardimpex.com/index.htm
· Andrea Dominici Battelli
· Paolo Bonato
· Dott. Francis A. Burkle-Young, del Gettysburg College, Pennsylvania
· Nobile Loris Castriota Skanderbegh
· Dott. Nobile Luigi Gonella
· Lucia Lopriore
· Dario E. Maria Manfredi, del Centro Studi Malaspiniani di Mulazzo
· Bruno De Martin
· Don Carlo Notarbartolo Conte di Priolo dei Duchi di Villarosa
· Cesare Patrignani
· R. Kenneth Sheets
· Prof. Dott. Herbert Stoyan, dell'Università di Erlangen
· Nicolò Tassoni Estense Marchese di Castelvecchio
[quote]

This is the most complete genealogy of the Kastriota’s that has ever been put together. According to this genealogy:

a) Skenderbeg is the great grandson of Branilo, the Serb duke of Kastoria.
b) Skenderbeg’s brother was named Stanisa, a contemporary Serbian name.
c) Stanisa’s son (Skenderbeg’s nephew) was also named Branilo.
d) Skenderbeg’s mother was Vojislava daughter of the Serb ruler of Polog
e) Skenderbeg’s sisters Valica and Jela mean ‘little wave’ and ‘dear’ in Serbian. Branilo and Stanisa are both Serbian names meaning ‘defender’ and ‘the one who stands,’ respectively. Note that neither Branilo, Stanisa, Valica nor Jela exist as Bulgarian names.





[quote] Branilo (+ assassinato a Jannina nel 1379 circa), di origine serba, Governatore di Jannina nel 1368. Sposa N.N.


B2. Stanisha (+ ante 1450)
= ……….

C1. Stanisha
= Despina, figlia di Musachi Comneno


C2. Branilo detto Bernardo (+ 1463), da prima musulmano diviene cristiano nel 1443, Conte di Mat nel
1450, Governatore di Croia fino alla morte.
= Maria, figlia di Paolo Zarzari o Zarderi


B6. Yela
= N.N.

B8. Vlaica (+ post 1444)
= Stefan Balsic

http://www.sardimpex.com/FILES/CASTRIOTA%20E%20BRANAI.htm
[quote]

It is remarkable that Pagan Serbian names persisted in the Kastriota family into the fourth generation. Skenderbeg brother Stanisa named his own son Branilo. Such inter-generational use of Pagan Serbian names suggests a preservation of a Serb identity. Much in the same way that religious Jews give their children distinctly Hebrew names like Herschel, Shmooley, Menachem, Yehuda and so forth so that they never forget their ancestry and identity. The reader should also note: the names being pointed out in the genealogy are Pagan Serbian names that could never have been diffused into Albanian culture through Christianity because the Serbs practiced Orthodox Christianity, which could never have diffused to Albanian Catholics. Also, Albanian Orthodoxy was always under Byzantine-Greek jurisdiction and concentrated in the south of Albania, furthest away from any potential and unlikely Serbian/Christian cultural diffusion.

Now we can give the comments made by Albanians Pirro Misha and Fatos Lubonja more substance and clarity. Regarding this genealogy, historically speaking, there is no document of comparable magnitude. Not only did more than a dozen professional genealogists compile it but it also has the backing of a direct descendant of Skenderbeg himself. Even the objective Albanian reader would be in a dilemma. The reason why Albanians converted to Islam (70%) very quickly after Skenderbeg died is because he wasn’t an Albanian. And yet, contrast that to how Albanians are willing to claim Obilic on 1/100 of the quality of evidence that this genealogy is worth.

Some of the Arberesh still apparently remember that Skenderbeg was a Serb. We know for a fact that his descendants do as well. Since the likelihood if this genealogy being a Serbian conspiracy is zero, the objective reader would have to concede that the genealogy is remarkably objective. If the genealogy said that Skenderbeg was an Albanian, would any Albanian still contest it then? Most likely: not. That one, single, unavoidable fact speaks volumes.

Greater Albania and neo-Enverism have to go. So does Skenderbeg. It is in the interest of Albanians to transfer their loyalty accordingly. In the Middle Ages, Albanians were led to greatness by a Serb nobleman, whose true life few Albanians really know or want to hear about or can even bare to accept. In a sense, losing Skenderbeg IS the end of the world. But it could also be the re-birth of a world that existed 600 years ago. Regardless of how Albanians may want to deal with or accept the Truth about Skenderbeg – it is still the Truth.

Kastoria is believed to have had ancient origins; it has been identified with the ancient town of Celetrum, which the Romans captured in 200 BC. The Byzantine historian Procopius records that it was later renamed Justinianopolis. The town's strategic position led to it being contested between the Byzantine Empire and the Despotate of Epirus during the 13th century; it was held by the Serbian Empire between 1331 and 1380.

There are many theories regarding the name Kastoria (in Greek: Καστοριά IPA: [ˌkasto̞ɾˈja]). It has been claimed that the name derives from the Greek word κάστορας/kástoras (beaver), who may have lived in the nearby lake (Lake Orestiada). Other theories propose that the name derives from the Greek word κάστρο/kástro (castle; from the Latin word castrum) or from the mythical hero Κάστωρ/Kástor, who may have been honoured in the area. The name for the city in Slavic is Kostur/Костур (from kost, 'bone')

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Re: Skenderbeg
Post by lonevolk on Nov 7, 2006, 6:03am

Excelent post.....Thanks for posting

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Re: Skenderbeg
Post by macedoniansoldier on Nov 7, 2006, 5:43pm

I do agree he wasnt Albanian, and he is of Slavic Origin... He is either of Serb or Macedonian descent

the author (Petar Popovski) gives accounts of Italian conteporaries (15 century AD) of Georgija who speak about him. For example if the contemporary author says: He (Georgija Kastriot) was of Slavic Mijak(Macedonian Tribe) ancestry...then I belive him more than to some British historian from 19 th century. Such quotes and faximils of original documents exist in his book. So....it contains the truth. His notebooks and his language is exclusively Slavic (mijak dialect)....First read the book...and then and only then make conclusions.



http://www.vreme.com.mk/DesktopDefault.a....ArticleID=44185

http://www.vreme.com.mk/DesktopDefault.a....ArticleID=44229

http://www.vreme.com.mk/DesktopDefault.a....ArticleID=44397

http://www.vreme.com.mk/DesktopDefault.a....ArticleID=44566

The book about Georgija Kastriot written by Petar Popovski is published these days in Macedonia. It is 1200 pages long (or short) and irrefutabely proofs his Macedonian (Mijak) ethnicity. Original documents...and the texts about him from Italian...and other european historians from his time (15-th century) irrefutably proove his Macedonian origin. Popovski added 20 epic Macedonian songs collected during 19-th century. Parts of two of them are presented in "Vreme. One is the song about the dream of his mother Voislava and the second is the song about Georgija and his wife Marija Andronika.

Главен извор од каде учителот Аврам Жунгулоски ги собирал песните биле неколку грамотни жени, сопруги на видни народни првенци од Малореканскиот крај. Меѓу интерпретаторките на тие епови биле:

Риста Жунгулоска (1798-1905), која била ќерка на познатиот лазарополски ќеаја Ѓурчин Кокалески, потоа, Темјана Куноска (1803-1887), Викторија Ѓиноска (1799-1881), Елена Чоланческа (1807-1892) и од Софија Брадиноска (1789-1891), сопруга на првенецот на селото Тресонче, Саржо Брадина.

Кога султанот Мурат го нарече втор Александар Македонски, на Кастриот му беше драго. Постојано мечтаеше за денот кога ќе ја земе во прегратка целата своја татковина. Неговата прерана смрт го спречи да ја оствари таа света идеја. Колку беше блиску до таа цел зборува планот на папата Пие Втори, според кој требаше по изгонувањето на Турците од Балканот, што се предвидуваше со крстоносна војна што ќе ја предводи Кастриот, тој да раководи со етничка и географска Македонија.

Иван Кастриот имал двајца браќа - Константин и Никола, првиот управувал со областа Мизија, во Горна, а вториот во областа Мартинеш, во Средна Арванија. Нивните сопруги биле ќерки на истакнати владетели, кои оставиле силен печат на времето во кое живееле. Константин бил женет за Елена, ќерка на Карло Топија, а Никола за Стојка, ќерка на црногорскиот властелин Балши Трети Страшимирович. Семејството Кастриот било во сродство како со стариот црногорски род Балши, така и со српскиот род Черноевичи. Во нивниот дом отсекогаш се зборувало на словенски, мијачки говорен јазик. Во нивно време „на историската сцена во Арванија на големо дејствувале моќни словенски државни творби...“. Несомнено, податок со кој се посведочува македонскиот словенски карактер на Матија (Араванија) во минатото.
Во бракот со Воислава, родена, исто така, во македонско властелинско семејство, во селото Градец, Тетовско, Иван Кастриот имал осум деца, од кои четворица синови - Репош, Станислав, Константин и Георгија и четири ќерки: Марија (Мара), Елена, Ангелина и Мамица.

So...the family of georgija Kastriot had RELATIONS with Montenegrian Balshi family and the Serbian Charnoevic family...but the Kastriots were MIJAKS from western Macedonia.

That means he was not Albanian and his family had relations with other Slavic speaking families.

Here are excerpts of the two songs in western Macedonian dialects:

A part of the song "The dream of queen Voislava"

Son sonila Voislava kralica
son sonila od son se isplasila
Mi rodila bela luta zmija
So kriljata Epir pokrivala
So glavata carigrad dopirala
Kako zmija glava mu vrtela
Take zivi Turci mi g'ltala

Se chudeje epirski vojvodi
sho je ova chudo nevideno
Malo kralce, s kruna na cheloto
Se radveshe Ivanova roda
Brakja , sestri i si bratuchedi
Sho se rodi dete zvezdajlija...

Mu kladoja ime Gospodovo
Georgija - ime hristijansko
Makedonsko - slavno biblijansko....

__________________________________________________________
A small part of the song about the " Beautiful Maria Andronika"


Ushche zora ne zorila
Stana Ivan na pot da mi odit
Mi razbudi sina Georgija
Si jafnaje svoi brzi konji
Otidoje vo grada Kanina..

Zdravo zivo tije si storile
I na divan skrisno besedeje
Da se krenat protiv Osmanlii
Da si vratit zemji porobeni
Ji sluzese mlada Andronika
S crno kafe i s luta rakija
Frli oko Gjorgji na devojka
Lichna moma kako samovila....
__________________________________________________

There are 20 full songs like these in the book, sung in a western Macedonian (Mijak) dialect. Albanians have none. Georgija Kastriot was IMPOSED in their history, by the Austro-hungarian and Italian politico-historians when Albania was formed in 1912. The father of Georgija --Ivan and Georgija as well , used Cyrilic script, Macedonian language (there are documents), Macedonians have songs about them....no other people in the Balkans have them. So......

Albanians were given a gift in 1912 . The gift was in a form of national hero...with name Skenderbeg. No one called Georgija Skenderbeg. Tuirks called him Iskender = Alexander. Skenderbeg is the name Italian and AustroHungarian politico-historians gave to the "NEW Albanian hero" in 1912.

Here are the women who sung these songs to Avram Zungulovski in the 19-th century. They are all in the book. Please read the links first.

I hope you understand Cyrilic and you understand Macedonian language.

Во книгата „Георгија Кастриот - Искендер (Втор Александар Македонски)“ за првпат се објавени 20 древни епски мијачки песни за Кастриота.

Главен извор од каде учителот Аврам Жунгулоски ги собирал песните биле неколку грамотни жени, сопруги на видни народни првенци од Малореканскиот крај. Меѓу интерпретаторките на тие епови биле:

Риста Жунгулоска (1798-1905), која била ќерка на познатиот лазарополски ќеаја Ѓурчин Кокалески, потоа, Темјана Куноска (1803-1887), Викторија Ѓиноска (1799-1881), Елена Чоланческа (1807-1892) и од Софија Брадиноска (1789-1891), сопруга на првенецот на селото Тресонче, Саржо Брадина.

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Re: Skenderbeg
Post by lonevolk on Nov 7, 2006, 6:36pm

Ohrid,

the links you posted are unfortunately the same sort of quasi history that has become the norm since independance. It only serves to harm the Macedonian image.

An example from the 1st link:

Quote:
Задоен со преданијата и со легендите за херојските подвизи на своите соплеменици, на македонските великани: на Филип и Александар Македонски, на Јустинијан Први, на Шишман Мокри, на царот Самуил, Георгија Кастриот прв и единствен во цивилизирана Европа


The territory of modern Macedonia (including Aegean Macedonia) was part of the Serbian kingdom and at certain periods before that part of the Bulgarian and Byzantine empire.

The capital of the Serbian kingdom under Car Dusan "Silni" was Skopje (approx the period before the Ottoman incursions)

The slavic population still had strong tribal affiliations but there is no evidence of a Macedonian national identity at that time. In all documents from coronations of the time, Serbs, Greeks, Vlachs and "Romans" are mentioned

The nobles that ruled the area are undoubtedly Serbian. Attempts by some modern Macedonian "academics" to give them a Macedonian identity are to say the least laughable.

I've read how Kraljevic Marko, the Mrnjavcevici....are being transformed as Macedonian. You are mixing the name of the region with a national identity.

As far as Skenderbeg goes, there is no doubt his national identity is Serbian. Here is his family tree again, from an italian source (from the time)


BTW, Branilo, Vojislava, Stanisa are not macedonian names

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Branilo (+ assassinato a Giannina nel 1379 circa), di origine serba, Governatore di Giannina nel 1368. Sposa N.N.



Paolo, Signore di Signa e Gardi-ipostesi. Sposa N.N.



A1. Costantino (+ decapitato a Durazzo 1402), Protovestiario, Signore di Signa (Serina) nel 1391 e di Croia dal 1395

al 1401.

= Elena Thopia Principessa di Durazzo, figlia di Carlo Signore di Durazzo e di Voisava (Caterina) Balsic dei

Signori di Cedda (+ post 1402).

A2. Alessio, capitano di 3 villaggi nel 1403.

A3. Giovanni (+ ca. 1443), Signore di Mat (confermato 1471) e di Vumenestia 1406/1438.

= Voisava Tripalda, figlia del signore serbo di Polog



B1. Repossio, monaco al Sinai.

B2. Stanisha (+ ante 1450)

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Re: Skenderbeg
Post by macedoniansoldier on Nov 7, 2006, 8:37pm


Quote:

Ohrid, the links you posted are unfortunately the same sort of quasi history that has become the norm since independance. It only serves to harm the Macedonian image. An example from the 1st link: Quote: Задоен со преданијата и со легендите за херојските подвизи на своите соплеменици, на македонските великани: на Филип и Александар Македонски, на Јустинијан Први, на Шишман Мокри, на царот Самуил, Георгија Кастриот прв и единствен во цивилизирана Европа The territory of modern Macedonia (including Aegean Macedonia) was part of the Serbian kingdom and at certain periods before that part of the Bulgarian and Byzantine empire. The capital of the Serbian kingdom under Car Dusan "Silni" was Skopje (approx the period before the Ottoman incursions) The slavic population still had strong tribal affiliations but there is no evidence of a Macedonian national identity at that time. In all documents from coronations of the time, Serbs, Greeks, Vlachs and "Romans" are mentioned The nobles that ruled the area are undoubtedly Serbian. Attempts by some modern Macedonian "academics" to give them a Macedonian identity are to say the least laughable. I've read how Kraljevic Marko, the Mrnjavcevici....are being transformed as Macedonian. You are mixing the name of the region with a national identity. As far as Skenderbeg goes, there is no doubt his national identity is Serbian. Here is his family tree again, from an italian source (from the time) BTW, Branilo, Vojislava, Stanisa are not macedonian names ------------------- Branilo (+ assassinato a Giannina nel 1379 circa), di origine serba, Governatore di Giannina nel 1368. Sposa N.N. Paolo, Signore di Signa e Gardi-ipostesi. Sposa N.N. A1. Costantino (+ decapitato a Durazzo 1402), Protovestiario, Signore di Signa (Serina) nel 1391 e di Croia dal 1395 al 1401. = Elena Thopia Principessa di Durazzo, figlia di Carlo Signore di Durazzo e di Voisava (Caterina) Balsic dei Signori di Cedda (+ post 1402). A2. Alessio, capitano di 3 villaggi nel 1403. A3. Giovanni (+ ca. 1443), Signore di Mat (confermato 1471) e di Vumenestia 1406/1438. = Voisava Tripalda, figlia del signore serbo di Polog B1. Repossio, monaco al Sinai. B2. Stanisha (+ ante 1450)

Oh blah blah I hear the same thing over over again from people like you, who think its there point to prove there are Macedonians or whatever which is suprising seeing your a mix of Macedonian and Serbian, I see you only see one side as your ethnicity, and its shown many times.

Krali Marko, was not Serbian, and theres nothing that you can post to prove that, and I mean that nothing.

I know about his family tree, which does have same good to it, but not everything can be taken from it, And one must remember that the Italians only interacted with Serbians, so it doesnt mean that the person was Serbian.

... Whatever Skenderbeg is he isnt Albanian.

Away from this anyways.......

Different topic...

What am I then Lonevolk? If no Macedonians appeared? Since you know so much more about Macedonians then me? What am I? I mean sure records of my people recorded by Italian Academics are not enough for you, or hey, Russian accounts of Macedonians are probably not enough for you since you know more then me, so what am I?

http://www.rastko.org.yu/rastko-ukr/istorija/2003-ns/mzdraveva.pdf
http://www.gate.net/~mango/18thC_Russian_Docs.htm

LE NAVIGATIONI ET VIAGGI FATTI NELLA TURCHIA, DI NICOLO DE' NICOLAI, del Delfinato , Signor d'Arfevilla, Cameriere, & Geografo ordinario del Re di Francia, con diverse singolarità, viste e osservate in quelle parti dall'Autore." which is written by Nicolas Nicolay who lived from 1517 to 1583. The place and date of issue of the book is Venezia, Presso Francesco Ziletti, 1580.

This book consists of copper-engravings of people from the various parts of the ottoman empire.


http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/2897/donnadimacedonia0qo.jpg
Donna Di Macedonia = Macedonian Women

Montenegrin Vasilje Petrovic even writes about Macedonians..... but

but hey what do these guys know....


You know I'm sick of everyone trying to discredit Macedonians, and trying to make them seem like they dont exist or they disappeared, usually I restrained myself on here, but **** this.

See, the good thing is its only a small percentage of people at least in the Serbian population, who believe like you do. And those are the ones you cant teach anything too.

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Re: Skenderbeg
Post by lonevolk on Nov 8, 2006, 12:11am

Before you spit the dummy, read what is actually posted.

I said the population still had TRIBAL (regional) allegiances. There would not have been a sharp distinction between them as we have today.....the language would've been more or less the same with only minor regional differences.

In the middle ages the identity was tied to your clan, king and religion.

A distinct Macedonian national identity doesn't start to appear until centuries later, but DEFINATELY not before the capture of the area by the Ottoman empire.

I've already posted before that the slavic tribes who were to later make up the bulk of the Bulgarian nation belonged to the same slavic group that inhabited Aegean Macedonia as well as the southern portion of the republic of Macedonia......but there is no doubt that there were Serbs present in large numbers.


From your own links:

Четрдесетих година 18. века у Нежину се помиње неколико лица из Македоније: Симеон Федоров „болгарин“ од града „Атрида“ (Охрида ?) насељен у Нежину
1740; Иван Димитриевич Сталевски „болгарин“ из града Искип (Ускюп, Скопје), у
Нежину се помиње од 1745. године као трговац, и други.


Сељења у Русију међу првима је започео пуковник Моришке милиције Јован
(Иван) Хорват (из развојаченог шанца Печке) за којег се сматра да је пореклом „из
Македонији Цинцар“


Александар Матковски сматра да
је породица Чорба пореклом из Охрида, где се и данас среће ово презиме. Такође
сматра да их је са породицом Хорвата везивала стара отаџбина.26 Презиме поме-
нутог Лазара Серезли, који се заједно с Хорватом иселио, указује да је капетан
(барјактар) Лазар сигурно пореклом из Сера. Ми сматрамо да су македонског по-
рекла и поменути Лука Попович, Кир Попович и Георг Попович.

У списку Шевићевог пука, поред Срба има лица из „греческую“
„венгерскую“, „болгарскую“ и „волоскую нацию“. У Шевићев пук 74 лица су се
декларирали као из „Македонской нацией“, за којих је на основу „Фонда 1413 опис
1 зб. 6 и зб. 15/3 јанваря 1759. из Централний державний исторический архив“ у
Кијеву, Александар Матковски дао списак имена, њихове старости, време кад су
прешли (у Руско царство), њихово породично стање, да ли су писмени и језике
које знају.37 Могуће је међутим, да су се неки људи из Македоније уписали у „гре-
ческую“, „сербскую“, „болгарскую“ или других нација. Пукови који су организова-
ли Шевић и Прерадовић у Славеносрбији били су руковођени од Шевића и Пре-
радовића и звали су се: „Шевићев хусарски полк“ и „Прерадовичев хусарски
полк“.
---------------

In only a couple of passages does it mention a Macedonian nationality, while others from Macedonia identified themselves as Bulgarians, Vlachs....even Hungarians.

It fits exactly, with what I've said.....that a separate Macedonian identity started to form only later in the 18-19 century.

How can you say that people with names like the ones above, Popovic, Kidric are Macedonian?......it only proves that there were a lot of Serbs in Macedonia.

------------

I won't even bother to prove anything about Kraljevic Marko.....it's like asking to prove whether the Sun is bright.

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Re: Skenderbeg
Post by srbin on Nov 8, 2006, 3:14am

come on man the discendent and a bunch of people did the geneology and his ancestry is is irefutably serbian there is no mention there of macedonian


Branilo (from the verb: 'braniti'):

braniti justify
braniti contend
braniti keep
braniti shoulder up
braniti justifier
braniti provide
braniti shelter
braniti shade
braniti forbid
braniti support
braniti assert
braniti protest
braniti disallow
braniti overshadow
braniti maintain
braniti hinder
braniti plead
braniti protect
braniti defened
braniti stand for
braniti shield
braniti champion
braniti preserve
braniti inhibit
braniti advocate
braniti stand by
braniti inhildit
braniti cover
braniti stick up for
braniti defend

B)

www.behindthename.com/nmc/ser.php

Variantions of 'Branilo' more comon to Serbs than any other Slav-speakers:

BRANIMIR m Croatian, Bulgarian
Means "peaceful protection" from the Slavic element bron "protection" combined with mir "peace".

BRANISLAV Áðàíèñëàâ m Serbian, Slovak, Czech
Serbian, Slovak and Czech form of BRONISLAW

BRANISLAVA Áðàíèñëàâà f Serbian, Slovak, Czech
Serbian, Slovak and Czech feminine form of BRONISLAW

BRANKA Áðàíêà f Serbian, Croatian, Slovene, Czech
Feminine pet form of BRANISLAV

BRANKO Áðàíêî m Serbian, Croatian, Slovene, Czech
Short form of BRANISLAV or BRANIMIR

2.

Vojislava (from the root verb 'voj' and the regular verb 'slava'):

www.krstarica.com/diction...hp?u=slava

slava kudos
slava holiday
slava reputation
slava renown
slava glory
slava praise
slava festivity
slava fame
slava name
slava celebrity
slava eminence

www.krstarica.com/diction...u=vojevati

vojevati fight
vojevati militate

www.krstarica.com/diction...u=vojevati

vojnik warrior
vojnik infantryman
vojnik red-coat
vojnik red coat
vojnik pioneer
vojnik military
vojnik man-at-arms
vojnik man at arms

www.krstarica.com/diction...p?u=vojska

vojska legion
vojska the military
vojska sword
vojska soldiership
vojska army
vojska cohort
vojska military

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Re: Skenderbeg
Post by srbin on Nov 8, 2006, 3:24am

its funny to me how backwards the Albanians are their national hero is a christian serb who refused to attack the serbs of Nis and in turn fought the muslims, serbia and albania were both under turkish occupation and they somehow ended up 80% muslim and serbs remained over 90% christian. the serbians also wrote their national anthem and their flag was skenderbegs coat of arms and a byzantine symbol yet ironically albanians are serbophobic muslims. I think their national hero should be JOhn Belushi he represents them better a as drug addicted albanian their culture reflects that i have also heard them claim Danny De vito which is also very representative of how they look and their stature.

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Re: Skenderbeg
Post by macedoniansoldier on Nov 8, 2006, 2:20pm


Quote:

its funny to me how backwards the Albanians are their national hero is a christian serb who refused to attack the serbs of Nis and in turn fought the muslims, serbia and albania were both under turkish occupation and they somehow ended up 80% muslim and serbs remained over 90% christian. the serbians also wrote their national anthem and their flag was skenderbegs coat of arms and a byzantine symbol yet ironically albanians are serbophobic muslims. I think their national hero should be JOhn Belushi he represents them better a as drug addicted albanian their culture reflects that i have also heard them claim Danny De vito which is also very representative of how they look and their stature.

I agree lol funny


Also Kastoria = Kostur

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Re: Skenderbeg
Post by macedoniansoldier on Nov 8, 2006, 2:30pm

I never said there wasnt any Serbs in Macedonia, quote me please.... Another having a IC on a last name doesnt automatically mean there "Serb".

As I said before I agree with Srbin about him being a Christian Slav, but Im not ruleing out him being Macedonian, because hell a 1200 book showing Iskender(Skenderbeg) as Macedonian, from foreign accounts, is not enough to show something, then I guess nothing is good enough.

Last Macedonian Empire was Tsar Samuil's....lonevolk

And again, the Macedonian idenity apperead before 18th century MANY times..... will be posting links...

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Re: Skenderbeg
Post by lonevolk on Nov 8, 2006, 6:30pm


Quote:

Last Macedonian Empire was Tsar Samuil's....lonevolk And again, the Macedonian idenity apperead before 18th century MANY times..... will be posting links...

If you can post some serious material about it, I'd be happy to admit I'm wrong.....but apart from articles from current Macedonian academics (with a nationalist bias) I think it will be hard to find any......I've looked myself.

Car Samoil is viewed as rebel Bulgarian nobleman by mainstream history, who formed his own kingdom centred in present day Macedonia. I agree that his people are ancestors of the present day Macedonians.

The Byzantine emperor (Vasilije or Basilius) who eventually defeated him and blinded his army is known to history as "Bulgar Slayer".

Like I said, if you have some sources that can prove otherwise, then post away


------------

P.S.

On the subject of Car Samoil, I've seen the remains of his fortress above Ohrid. It's a pity that no one has decided to fix that place up a bit. It would be a great tourist attraction when you combine it with the surrounding mountains and lake.

Also, his early capital was in nearby Prespa....there is still a village called Carev Dvor (Royal Castle?) where his capital use to be

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Re: Skenderbeg
Post by srbin on Nov 14, 2006, 6:31pm




as u can see skenderbeg was born Stanisa to the Crnojevic Family

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Re: Skenderbeg
Post by lonevolk on Nov 14, 2006, 7:25pm

I hadn't seen this chart before.....Thanks for posting

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Re: Skenderbeg
Post by psvranes on Nov 14, 2006, 10:44pm

Thanks for Crnojevic`s ancestry tree from me, too

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