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Post by pastir on Jan 23, 2008 21:33:37 GMT -5
I don't have to add shit.... Half-truths, generalisations and mystifications.....You've just described your own view on the period and added a liberal amount of left wing anti-monarchism. You know what is your other problem? You assume too much. I make my stances clear in words that are mine. Then when people speak up in reply and criticism of them I reply to the actual words before me. I don`t reply to what I think the poster is by the words he said. If somebody says he doesn`t like mayonese I don`t attack him by saying he is a ketchup maniac. If I say a sentance you wrote down is not true, then I mean the sentance you wrote down is not true. I don`t mean it means histories of Croats and Serbs are the same or even alike. When I say something I mean what I say I don`t mean whatever it is in your mind that I must be saying or thinking by that. So once again, if I am anti-monarchist, because I see nothing nationalistic about it. That makes me "left wing". Really? Is that supposed to discredit me? And define "left wing" while you are at it. I am a nationalist. (Is nationalism left wing? If so then fuck me I am left wing.) But I am not a nationalist in any Western sense of the word. I am not a nationalist in the sense of state worship which is what nationalism means for example in France or USA. I am a nationalist that bases his nationalism on narod, because narod is the basis of our nations, not the state buerocracy (unlike in France or USA). Which is why the only kind of state that is fully legitimate in my eyes is the state which servers only the interest of the narod and no other interests besides that. Which is why monarchies annoy me, because they at the very least in addition to the interest of the narod (and historicaly often against it) serve the interests of the privileged. The whims of the monarch, his vanity, his gloryseeking, his comfortable life, luxuries and wealth, his power and influence, his special status, sometimes even his cult. Does that make me left wing? No that is actually neither left wing nor right wing position. It is an Ethnic Nationalist position. It is Ethnic Nationalism taken to its full, Nationalism developed to its logical conclusions. You *can be* a left-wing nationalist, for example if you belive the interests of the narod are best served by state socialism, but as it happens I am a right-wing nationalist because I belive the interests of the narod are best served by minimal government and unabashed capitalism. |
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Post by pastir on Jan 23, 2008 22:02:05 GMT -5
Thank you. This is the kind of post I was hoping for all along. I'm no monarchist (for different reasons than yourself) but since you've made a issue of the Obrenovic dynasty, why don't you explain the context of his about turn towards A-U? Do you consider the San Stefan agreement a just solution from a Serbian perspective? No. There were some Serbian areas added to San Stefano Bulgaria which was wrong. And infact there was a less known Russian proposal for the solution of the Bulgarian question presented at Istanbul Conference before the war (the proposal had a name but it escapes me at the moment) which was even worse and by which the south Serbian city of Nish itself would have been a part of Bulgaria. (I actually brought up this proposal once very long time ago on SNF.) Considering the circumstances Serbia somewhat cooling down for Russia was to be wholly expected and would not have been unjustified. However Milan Obrenovic took it way too far and in doing so revealed he was not in the least bit influenced by any pro-Russian feeling from the beggining. Russia did sideline Serbia in favor of Bulgaria and left it half abandoned. However that was no justification for the King to so throughoutly enlist Serbia into the Austrian block. Firstly it was harmful for Serbia herself as it placed it into the hands of her enemy (this after all was a country which had just marched into and occupied Bosnia, Herzegovina and Sandjak to prevent them from joining Serbia. and which included Vojvodina and Krajina in its territories). Secondly it meant putting herself with the enemies of Russia. Which is something that could have ended up pitting Serbs and Russians against eachother in a war, had history went on differently from there. The first is not acceptable from a Serbian nationalist perspective and the second also from the Slavic nationalist perspective or indeed the perspective of any Serb who claims to be in solidarity with the Russian people. (Also the San Stefano Bulgaria didn`t survive past the Berlin Conference. Was annexation of Eastern Rumelia to the Berlin Treaty Bulgaria in any way unjust to Serbia and a reason for Obrenovic to launch a war against it? Lets place that in perspective. He as a ruler of one Slavonic nation unprovoked launched a war against another Slavonic nation. Had the attacked nation been Russia everybody here would be appauled, but since it was Bulgaria there is hardly any indignation. But we are Slavic Nationalists aren`t we? The sentiment we feel for the Russian nation should be felt for Bulgarian nation as well, should it not?) Besides Russia`s actions here just reinforce my point. Russia herself was led by a monarch who acted against the sentiment of his people and the mayority of the politicaly awakened strata in sidelining Serbia. Had at the time not been a monarch ussually pushing forth aristocratic reactionaries at the head of the state, Russia`s policy would have been fully in accordance with russian nationalism and pan-slavism. And why don't you mention how the Obrenovic dynasty ended? It ended with a bloody coup and ascention of the Karadjordjevic dynasty. (Infact nearly every royal reign in Serbia ended the same, with assasination or abdication and exile.) Petar I who followed was an uncharectaristicaly modest ruler who largely led the state in accordance to the interests of the serbian people and therefore immediatley pulled Serbia from the Austrian claws. However in 1912 his insistance on Serbia annexing Vardar Macedonia which was Slavic land, but not Serbian, was a mayor cause of the 2nd Balkan war and of another inter-Slavic conflict. (Serbian diplomacy actually never lay claim on most of the Vardar Macedonia UNTIL it was denied the territory it had been claiming and which consisted of today`s northern Albania, addition of which would see Serbia gain a coast, after the intervention of Italy and Austria that saw Albania created as their puppet state following the First Balkan War.) And to make things worse after the war he unleashed a state sponsored program of assimilation of the population there that included complete usage of "Serbo-Croatian-Slovene language" (which was in practice in Macedonia simply Serbian) in schools and state institutions and crackdown on calls for any kind of cultural or political autonomy of the fellow non-Serb Orthodox Slavs in Macedonia who were supposed to be only southern Serbs and I heard (from a Macedonian poster on this forum a while ago) it also included serbification of surnames to add the suffix -ic. Now this Slav on Slav imperialism is something a person of all-slavic sentiment can not show support for and infact must be against. |
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Post by pastir on Jan 23, 2008 22:18:55 GMT -5
If you are secure in your possession, you will treat the house with care and make long-term improvements. If the house can be taken away at any time, what's the point of taking care of it? Jaromir. You fail to notice narod and state are not one and the same. The monarch posses the state not the narod. It is the state that gives him power and ensures his stay. The house in this case is the state not the narod. Yes most monarchs did attempt to advance the welfare of their state, but that didn`t neccesarily mean the welfare of the narod were advanced to the same degree or to any degree at all. The only way your illustration would have been relevant was if there was a mechanism in place that would ensure every monarch would be first and foremost a Nationalist . But they weren`t. Not even close. Infact they actually even prefered to breed with foreigners of their social strata than within their own narod! They were the original communists in this respect and when it came to this; their class identity was more important to them than their ethnicity! |
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Post by srbobran on Jan 23, 2008 22:33:39 GMT -5
Yes. Why?
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Post by pastir on Jan 23, 2008 22:41:31 GMT -5
And I`m sure you mean well. But people like you always end up working for the enemy and against their people. Just like Ljotic and Obrenovic.
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Post by pastir on Jan 23, 2008 23:17:02 GMT -5
There is one more thing I need to mention. The ideal of Bulgarian nationalist revolutionaries was a republic. But after the liberation the reactionary Russian Tsar insured they would be a monarchy. And as the monarch he choose for them was his favorite nephew von Battenberg who was from a minor German noble house, was an ethnic German of no Bulgarian ancestry and spoke not a word of Bulgarian.
And I am supposed to feel nostalgic about a great "nationalist" system where the head of a Slavic state found it perfectly fine a German should rule a Slavic nation?
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Vladimir
Mayor
Gospod carstvuje!
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Post by Vladimir on Jan 24, 2008 6:48:57 GMT -5
Vladimir you disgust me. To come to a forum interested in Slavic Solidarity with an avatar of a Nazi collaborator and speak up for one is just disgusting. What Nazi collaborator? You mean some of our neighbors that were fighting the Russian people under the Stalingrad in SS units? No you're wrong, these guys live to the west, east, north and south of us. You know nothing about SDK and history in general. You're just twisting the facts and making up the stories so it can suit your agenda. That's your problem. SDK wore Yugoslav royal uniforms, were armed only with Yugoslav made rifles and Yugoslav made bombs ( so called "Kragujevčanke"). No heavy armament, not even machine guns, unlike German real allies who were fully armed. And all of this is what was left in the army stock. Anyway they were formed by Milan Nedić to fight the communists, because Germans were threating to divide the rest of Serbia between the Croats, Bulgarians, Albanians and Hungarians, and he knew what that means - all of them being very thirsty of Serbian blood. SDK operated only in Serbia, except in 1944-'45 when they were forced to leave the country by Soviets, and regroup in Slovenia with the rest of the Yugoslav nationalist forces. I've put their insignia as my avatar because except Serbs, Croats and Slovenes fought in SDK too, and SDK itself, as well as Yugoslav national movement ZBOR were dedicated to the unity of all Slavs, not just southern branch. And I already posted some of the links regarding the history of SDK and ROA, and really have no intention to argue with any of you about them any further. |
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Post by ratnik on Jan 24, 2008 6:59:36 GMT -5
I am hoping for a different reaction actually. I don`t see it as "our" sin as in the sin of the serb narod. It was the sin of the traitor king. The king who worked against the narod and brough as much harm to Serbia as Bulgaria. You did spot the part when I said the soldiers were kept in the dark and were made to belive they were going to fight the Turks and lost all battle spirit when they realised the campaign is aimed at Bulgarian brothers? I don`t think personification of the serb peple with their political leadership is in place in this case at all. Pastir can you explain how exactly king Milan managed to hide from a whole army the real purpose of the war? |
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Vladimir
Mayor
Gospod carstvuje!
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Post by Vladimir on Jan 24, 2008 7:19:52 GMT -5
So what? Don't make me post what serbs write about us in their forums, because I smell a big flame war! Why don't you post then? Serbs in general are not interested in Bulgarians at all. You're not a part of our national problem. But it seems that we are somehow the part of yours, and you still view Serbs as your enemies. We don't see Bulgarians in that way. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Since Lonevolk already replied at some of your claims, I'll just reply at some others that he didn't. What about these 2 towns and Macedonia? Some Serbian "crimes" toward Bulgarians happened there? What? I don't get your point. Bosilegrad and Caribrod were ceded to Serbia after the ww1, I think, for the sake of war reparations. You didn't pay us reparations in money, but you pay us in territory. And trust me, it was little price to pay for what you did in 1915 and to all the civilians during the war. The same thing why Germany ceded Alsace and Lorraine to France, and Silesia and Pomerania to Poland. You can thank the Dimitrov-Tito friendship for not ceding any of your territories after the ww2, because for what you did in 1941-1944 to us, Bulgaria would probably have been the size of a matchbox. Vardarska Macedonia was ceded to us because you lost the second Balkan war. As simple as that. What foreign lands? I bet that San Stefan Bulgaria is your ideal, but I doubt that Macedonians and south-eastern Serbs will ever accept that they're Bulgarians, no matter what your national propaganda in 19th and 20th century says - the truth short and simple. Accept it. |
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Post by ratnik on Jan 24, 2008 7:29:02 GMT -5
WTF do you know about Vukovar and Srebrenica ? Lots of things. Sounds like a "humanitarian" operation Exactly! Turkey still can't forget this. Oh I forgot to tell you - the terrorists who detonated the bomb were found in just several hours and executed. Thanks to the Rebirth process the hardcore turkish diaspora in Bulgaria was destroyed and their number - decreased. But we didn't killed the turks (as the serbs did with the bosnians, albanians and croats). There was not a single killed turk! We just deported them in their beloved Turkey. Those who stayed were given new names. That's why today we have not problems with wild radical turks, who want autonomy and separation. They live peacefully with the Bulgarians and respect them. And speaking of cowards and backstabbing, how would you describe the actions of the Bulgarian Army in 1914 and 1941?....and the real "humanitarian" conduct of your army  I describe it as revenge. Bulgaria never wanted war with the serbs. Serbia attacked first in some very vile way while our entire army was on the turkish border. I told you that this attack changed the mentality of the whole Bulgarian population. If someone you consider brother attacks you in your back, rapes your woman, kills your children and then takes your food how will you react? Will you call this man brother again? The attack from 1914 was a revenge. Revenge for the serbian treachery in 1885 and 1913, when united with Greece, Romania and Turkey she stole Vardarska Macedonia - undisputable Bulgarian historical and ethnic land, the birthplace of Samuil - the legendary fighter against Basil II Macedon The Bulgar slayer.I should also mention the Hellenisation of Aegean Macedonia - a land which was populated by Slavic speaking Bulgarians. In this case Serbia was against the Slavic identity, because she allied with one of the millenium rivals of the Balkan slavs - the Greeks and helped them to assimilate and Hellenise the slavs in Aegean Macedonia!!! And then in 1944 when the tide turns, you heroically stabb your german allies in the back for good measure The communists did it. And they are everything but not Bulgarians. The inhabitants of Vardarska Macedonia might have some issue with your list above Which inhabitants? Those who are product of Tito and Stalin? How many they are? Do you think that several spammers, using different nicknames and spamming all famous internet forums represent the population of Vardarska Macedonia? |
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Post by ratnik on Jan 24, 2008 7:43:01 GMT -5
No I won't post them. This means a lot of problems for the moderators. Bosilegrad and Caribrod were ceded to Serbia after the ww1, I think, for the sake of war reparations. You didn't pay us reparations in money, but you pay us in territory. And what did you paid us for the vile attack in 1885? And why you continue to assimilate the people from Bosilegrad and Tsaribrod? Why you forbid them to learn Bulgarian? Don't try to reject these facts I know a lot about the people from these 2 towns. You can thank the Dimitrov-Tito friendship for not ceding any of your territories after the ww2, because for what you did in 1941-1944 to us, Bulgaria would probably have been the size of a matchbox. ;D And what we did? As far as I know there was not a single Bulgarian soldier on serbian ground. Lies again? What foreign lands? I bet that San Stefan Bulgaria is your ideal, but I doubt that Macedonians and south-eastern Serbs will ever accept that they're Bulgarians, no matter what your national propaganda in 19th and 20th century says - the truth short and simple. Accept it. I can show you thousands of documents proving that San Stefanska Bulgaria was the lands populated by ethnic Bulgarians. But as I told you before - this means a great flame war, curses, insults and lots of problems for the moderators. I just can't do this to the poor Lonevolk and White Cossack. ;D This was my last post to you Vladimir. I have no time to argue with someone who can not think. |
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Vladimir
Mayor
Gospod carstvuje!
Posts: 604
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Post by Vladimir on Jan 24, 2008 8:00:34 GMT -5
WTF do you know about Vukovar and Srebrenica ? Lots of things. But we didn't killed the turks (as the serbs did with the bosnians, albanians and croats). You just proved that you know nothing... Oh, those God damn evil Serbs, they must be some super-humans if they managed to do all this things in just one battle - at Slivnica, which marked the beginning and the end of the Serbo-Bulgarian war in 1885, which Serbian army lost You're repeating that like it some kind of mantra. Serbian treachery then Serbian treachery. You can repeat again, again and again, a million times, you won't make it truth. Undisputed Bulgarian land? I think some of our Macedonian members here will probably have some sort of objection ;D Samuil was Armenian himself, like the rest of his family, and mistake you make here is that you can't project your 19th century nationalist views at the ages where there were no national states. And especially because Samuil had a very big state, not inhabited only by Bulgarians, but by other Slavic tribes too. Yes, probably every Slav between the Danube and the Aegean sea, and Drina to Istanbul is probably Bulgarian Ever heard about Serbs and Macedonian Slavs, or your 19th century Bulgarian propaganda never reached further of Khan Yuvigi Asparuh??? While you lied how Serbs helped Greeks to assimilate and Hellenise the Macedonian Slavs, why don't you mention that Bulgaria signed the agreement with Greece in 1924 in Geneva? According to this agreement all Slavs living in Aegean Macedonia are to be considered Bulgarians!!! Yeah, I can already imaging how inhabitants of Republic of Macedonia welcome the Bulgarian army with open arms ;D |
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Vladimir
Mayor
Gospod carstvuje!
Posts: 604
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Post by Vladimir on Jan 24, 2008 8:29:19 GMT -5
And what did you paid us for the vile attack in 1885? Your lands were reunited, how about that? That's a lie. Why don't you come and see for yourself. Every minority in Serbia has a constitutionally guaranteed rights including the rights to have school classes in their own language. Hungarians, and Muslims have this right, why should be any different when it comes to Bulgarians? I even remember there were informative programs on Serbian national TV in Bulgarian called TV Žurnal. Anyway, if that was up to me, I would really gladly return those 2 towns to you for the sake of brotherhood between our two nations. They mean absolutely nothing to us Serbs, being just 2 small towns at the edge of the world, really. But somehow they've got very big importance to you, so much that you present it like the matter of life and death... You gotta be joking me... Bulgarian army occupied the whole of the southern Serbia, as well as Vardar Macedonia. Serbian language was outlawed, Serbian Cyrillic too, people were forced to declare as Bulgarians or else... Many people were shot, many just slaughtered. Still today older people remember those days and call it "Bugarski zulum". I know you can. When it comes to these things you Bulgarians are armed and ready for action, like the US army in Afghanistan. Lots and lots of mainly German, but also French and British maps. Only one problem - everyone can draw a map, but not everyone have informations about national censuses. As for these flame wars, curses and insults, I hope you've seen that no matter how your and mine opinion differ, I've never tried to insult you here... |
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Post by Яромip on Jan 24, 2008 11:47:41 GMT -5
Do not presume to know my failings. I've written many times about Narod-Gosudarstvo(state) distinction.
Russian monarchy existed because it was acceptable to people. Elections in 1900 or 1904 would have been quite pointless as people would vote for the Czar. Once the monarchy failed, in the eyes of the people, a was no longer acceptable, it fizzled out. Nikolaj II abdicated. Monarchy ended without any bloodshed (blood-shed came later from our beloved Communists).
Problem is, there is no way to re-establish monarchy once it again becomes acceptable to Narod. Ever notice how the referendums are held over and over again until the desired result is achieved? AND THEN STOP!
Will there be a referendum in Cernogorica next year whether to re-join Serbia? The very notion is absurd. Would have been a referendum to leave if the previous one failed? As sure as the sun rises.
Monarch might be a nationalist. Democratically elected officials are guaranteed to be sell-outs.
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Post by srbobran on Jan 24, 2008 18:17:33 GMT -5
How so? Of course I mean well; my views coincide with the paths smartest for MY country. We are a small nation and cannot fight against the world (like we have so many times in the past and to no avail); thus, we should align ourselves with the stronger nations in order to preserve our own survival. Look at the Albanians; sure they licked American ass, but now they will soon have numerous territorial additions (ie Kosovo) to show for it. We fought the world and look at us, we are absolute SHITT. Our country is a hell of alot smaller than it should be, we being run by idiots, and our economy is a fraction of what it used to be.
The Serbian Volunteer Corps and Nedic's government were vital in saving the core of the Serbian populace. Hitler offered us two choices: let Serbia be carved up between our hostile neighbors, or allow the Serbs to manage their own land. Had Nedic not taken up the position of head of Axis Serbia, Serbs would have endured far greater struggles than they were already enduring. Of course, the smartest path in the first place was to not even enter the war but that moron Simovic made sure that wouldn't happen.
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