Some of Czechs are not Slavs

[Vladimir]

Everything you stated here in your post is not just nonsense, it's complete BS! I'll analyze your statements step by step...

kolowrat said:

When slavs arrived at Balkans they conquer Iliryans and asimilate them.

True, but do we know how these Illyrians even looked like? According to anthropologist Carleton Coon they were blond and very tall people, of Nordic stock and center of their culture was famous archaeological site Hallstat in Austria.

Slavs was not interested in area of today Albania and big part of Romania because of high monutains.

Every spot on this map is a Slavic toponym in state of Albania:



another map with Serbian toponyms on it marked with red:

Ilirians and Vlachs retreat high in mountains
or just stay in they not invaded land.

The last historical mention of Illyrian name is in 4th century AD. They've already been Romanized and have considered themselves Romans and not Illyrians. So when Slavs came to the Balkans these Illyrians already didn't existed. Only Romans existed. So only Romans could have been assimilated.

As for Vlach name, it's clear that this name "Vlach" is actually of Slavic origin. The name Vlach comes from Slavic/Serbian word "Vlas" which means hair of course. In Nemanjics' Serbia they were known as a caste of cattle-breeders. Slavic god of cattle is Veles, Volos or Vles. Case closed.

Albanians are sure some middle Asian tribe but they mixed with Ilirians and had no influence by Slavs at all.

Wrong. When Albanians settled in the 11th century in those areas, Slavs were already living there. Only Romance population in that area lived in cities and strongholds on the shores of the Adriatic sea.

And i believe they do have sometnihg with Iliryans and Vlachs.
Some of new Serbian schoolars want to tell they have notting in common with Ilryrian because of politics.

They have nothing in common with the Illyrians and that's a historical fact.

As for your second comment, Austrian and Vatican scholars made up that fable about Albanian supposed Illyrian ancestry because of politics, not Serbs.

Here's a map of EUROPE at the death of CHARLES THE GREAT 814.
Taken from LONGMANS. GREEN and CO. London, New York and Bombay



Take a look where were Serbs at that time and where were Albanians!

Couple of villages in Eastern Serbia far away from Albania, even closer to Romania and Bulgaria have albanian (precisely Ilyirian) names today (Špaj, Veta). People who live in those villages have different slang, look, etc etc. They are not so open to others. Living in close society.
No more than 5km from them is "Vlach valley"...

This statement proves nothing. As far as I know, the names of that villages ( if they exist at all) could be of anyone's origin. Even Japanese. And the reason for your insisting that those villages are of Albanian origin is probably only know exclusively to you!

I'm not dealing with those "a man who is now dead once told me..." stories, but with concrete historical evidence. Here the are:



As you can see at this segment of a German map of Berat ( once known as Belgrad) Albania from 1898, 100% Slavic/Serbian toponyms.

Ilyrians couldnt disapear from land.
most of them is asimilated by Serbs (Slavs) but in some areas they saved way of living, speaking,...

Who were these Illyrians? Do we know for sure? Were they a single people or a confederation of tribes of different origin? What sort of culture they had? What was the language they've spoke?

You must answer all these questions before even commenting something about them. But it seems you like to talk about them although very little is known about them at all.

I wouldn't be so sure about them like you, because any information regarding them is quite dubious, and is not easy to make conclusions...

[joko]

This article clarifies more information about the Illyrians.

The origins of the Albanian people, as was mentioned before, are not definitely known, but data drawn from history and from linguistic, archaeological, and anthropological studies have led to the conclusion that Albanians are the direct descendants of the ancient Illyrians and that the latter were natives of the lands they inhabited. Similarly, the Albanian language derives from the language of the Illyrians, the transition from Illyrian to Albanian apparently occurring between the 4th and 6th centuries AD.

Ilyrian culture is believed to have evolved from the Stone Age and to have manifested itself in the territory of Albania towardthe beginning of the Bronze Age, about 2000 BC. The Ilyrians were not a uniform body of people but a conglomeration of many tribes that inhabited the western part of the Balkans, from what is now Slovenia in the northwest to and including the region of Epirus, which extends about halfway down the mainland of modern Greece. In general, Ilyrians in the highlands of Albania were more isolated than those in the lowlands, and their culture evolved more slowly--a distinction that persisted throughout Albania's history.

In its beginning, the kingdom of Ilyria comprised the actual territories of Dalmatia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, with a large part of modern Serbia. Shkodra (Scutari) was its capital, just as it is now, the most important center of Northern Albania.

The earliest known king of Illyria was Hyllus (The Star) who is recorded to have died in the year 1225 B.C. The Kingdom, however, reached its zenith in the fourth century B.C. when Bardhylus (White Star), one of the most prominent of the Illyrian kings, united under scepter the kingdoms of Ilyria, Molossia (Epirus**) and a good part of Macedonia. But its decay began under the same ruler as a result of the attacks made on it by Philip of Macedon, father of Alexander the Great.

In the year 232 B.C. the Ilyrian throne was occupied by Teuta, the celebrated Queen whom historians have called Catherine the Great of Illyria. The depredations of her thriving navy on the rising commercial development of the Republic forced the Roman Senate to declare war against the Queen. A huge army and navy under the command of of Santumalus and Alvinus attacked Central Albania, and, after two years of protracted warfare, Teuta was induced for peace (227 B.C.)

The last king of Ilyria was Gentius, of pathetic memory. In 165 B.C. he was defeated by the Romans and brought to Rome as a captive.

Henceforth, Ilyria consisting of the Enkalayes, the Taulantes, the Epirotes, and the Ardianes, became a Roman dependency. She was carved out into three independent republics the capitals of which were respectively Scodar (Shkodër), Epidamnus (Durrës) and Dulcigno (today's Ulqin in Montenegro).

Authors of antiquity relate that the Illyrians were a sociable and hospitable people, renowned for their daring and bravery at war. Illyrian women were fairly equal in status to the men, even to the point of becoming heads of tribal federations. In matters of religion, Illyrians were pagans who believed in an afterlife and buried their dead along with arms and various articles intended for personal use. The land of Illyria was rich in minerals--iron, copper, gold, silver--and Illyrians became skillful in the mining and processing of metals. They were highly skilled boat builders and sailors as well; indeed, their light, swift galleys known as liburnae were of such superior design that the Romans incorporated them into their own fleet as a type of warship called the Liburnian.

[Vladimir]

The key statement in this text is this:

The Ilyrians were not a uniform body of people but a conglomeration of many tribes that inhabited the western part of the Balkans, from what is now Slovenia in the northwest to and including the region of Epirus, which extends about halfway down the mainland of modern Greece.

Absolutely true and correct...

The origins of the Albanian people, as was mentioned before, are not definitely known, but data drawn from history and from linguistic, archaeological, and anthropological studies have led to the conclusion that Albanians are the direct descendants of the ancient Illyrians and that the latter were natives of the lands they inhabited. Similarly, the Albanian language derives from the language of the Illyrians, the transition from Illyrian to Albanian apparently occurring between the 4th and 6th centuries AD.

There is NOT a single evidence of Illyrian origin of Albanians. No linguistic, no archaeological and no anthropological evidence. This section of the text is a classic fabrication of author and pure Albanian propaganda!

Albanian language derives NOTHING from Illyrian! Not a single word.
Do we know how this Illyrian language even looked like?

First historical mention of Albanian national name in historical resources was in 11th century, around year 1050, when they were mentioned by Byzantine sources. Byzantine sources claim that they were drawn from Sicily as mercenaries to fight in Byzantine civil war.

This source also claims that these Albanians were drawn to Sicily from Caucasus by Arabs.

Last historical mention of Illyrian name was in 4th century AD.

So we have here a historical gap of almost 700 years!!!

Not even the brightest forger of history can fill up that historical gap!

[Boris Sarafov]

kolowrat said:

I do believe Albanians have more in common with old natives but
i have never unterstand people who are shame of being settlementer (not native one).


Today land of Serbia and Bosnian and Croatian part where Serbs live was quite un-populated extept Eastern Serbia and maybe Voivodina.

Slavic tribes on Balkan:

Serbian slavic tribes>
Srbi, Moravci, Sumadinci, Decani, Timocani, Branicevci, Torlaci,...


Slavic tribes which live in Macedonia>
Strumièani, Dragoviti, Berziti, Mijaci, Brsjaci, Sagudati, Dragoviti (also), Smoljani (also), Rinhini,

That right there is correct. No such thing is FYR, and Greek Macedonia. Only Macedonia.


Two, Slavs never came here in a all scale immigration, a Slav Migration never happened, as the whole Slav Migration Theory holds as much water as a cup with the bottom cut out of it.

[Vladimir]

macedoniansoldier said:

That right there is correct. No such thing is FYR, and Greek Macedonia. Only Macedonia.

Two, Slavs never came here in a all scale immigration, a Slav Migration never happened, as the whole Slav Migration Theory holds as much water as a cup with the bottom cut out of it.

You're absolutely right - you aren't Slavs and you never were.

So, what the hell are you doing on a Slavic board?

[Boris Sarafov]

What are you talking about?

[joko]

I do agree with the first part of that article about the Illyrians, which you have also agreed with. The Albanian origin is one that is much debated. However, I don't agree with the theory that the Albanians migrated from the Caucasian country "Albania". This theory holds no weight. The Albanians in the Balkans refer to themselves as "Shqiptars" not "Albanians", plus I've never heard a thread of evidence supporting the theory that they migrated from that ancient country, which I've read was occupied by Kurds and Mesopotamians. Also, many South Slavs are indeed part Illyrian, another fact that many Albanians deny. The whole "Illyrian" movement actually started among Croatians as a rebellion towards Hapsburg-Austro-Hungarian rule. The Illyrian movement was initially a Pan-Slavic movement.

[Vladimir]

joko said:

I do agree with the first part of that article about the Illyrians, which you have also agreed with. The Albanian origin is one that is much debated. However, I don't agree with the theory that the Albanians migrated from the Caucasian country "Albania". This theory holds no weight. The Albanians in the Balkans refer to themselves as "Shqiptars" not "Albanians", plus I've never heard a thread of evidence supporting the theory that they migrated from that ancient country, which I've read was occupied by Kurds and Mesopotamians. Also, many South Slavs are indeed part Illyrian, another fact that many Albanians deny. The whole "Illyrian" movement actually started among Croatians as a rebellion towards Hapsburg-Austro-Hungarian rule. The Illyrian movement was initially a Pan-Slavic movement.

Exactly, Albanians refer to themselves as Shqiptars. Translated from the Albanian language this word Shqiptar means highlander or mountain-dweller. This word also shows non-indoeuropean origin - it ends on AR like in similar ethnic names - AvAR, TatAR, KhazAR, MagyAR, HungAR, BulgAR etc.

Although Magyars and Bulgarians are indoeuropean today their ethnic origin wasn't.

As for Albania and Albanians, they got that name from the city of Albana, located somewhere in Caucasus region. Kurds and "Mesopotamians"never lived at Caucasus mountains.

[joko]

I don't even think the Magyar language is considered Indo-European. None of the Finno-Ugric languages are in the list of Indo-European languages, they most likely came from Mongolia and Central Asia. Albanian is proposed to be related to Illyrian, but a problem linguists have with that is that Albanian is a Satem language like the Balto-Slavic languages and Armenian. and Illyrian tongues were Centum, meaning they were more related to Greek, Latin, and Germanic tongues. I have read that the Albanian language and Irish have had similarities, and Dna testing has recently shown that Albanians are related to Welsh, Irish, and other "Celtic" people. Maybe they are the descendants of remnant Celtic tribes that settled in the Balkans.

[Alexandrus]

joko said:

I don't even think the Magyar language is considered Indo-European. None of the Finno-Ugric languages are in the list of Indo-European languages, they most likely came from Mongolia and Central Asia. Albanian is proposed to be related to Illyrian, but a problem linguists have with that is that Albanian is a Satem language like the Balto-Slavic languages and Armenian. and Illyrian tongues were Centum, meaning they were more related to Greek, Latin, and Germanic tongues. I have read that the Albanian language and Irish have had similarities, and Dna testing has recently shown that Albanians are related to Welsh, Irish, and other "Celtic" people. Maybe they are the descendants of remnant Celtic tribes that settled in the Balkans.

Yes, its a lot more likely then the illyrian theory, but frankly, some of the albanians look more like turks rather then celts.

[Grom]

joko said:

I have read that the Albanian language and Irish have had similarities,

Do you know Irish?

joko said:

and Dna testing has recently shown that Albanians are related to Welsh, Irish, and other "Celtic" people.

Can you tell me, how, when and where was conducted that tests?
If you can give me link on this article, please.

[joko]

I don't know who conducted the tests, but I've also read about how various Irish and Albanian words are related. You can find some of that stuff online. Also, Scotland was originally called "Alba", and it is traditional for both Scots and Albanians to wear Kilts, which according to Lord Byron the Greeks adopted as their national costume later.

[kolowrat]

i agree tottaly that Ilyrians was asimilated by Romans and again by Slavs and some areas of Balkan peninsula have mixure of Romanicized Iryrians and Slavs.
But for Albania im quite sure there was no Slavs or percentage of Slavs today is very small except north Albania
but i think that small groups have relations with Serbs or other neighbour Slavs because they have orthodox religion not because they have Slavic origins.

[Grom]

joko said:

Also, Scotland was originally called "Alba",

:)Well, in Russia today some people try to relate "Etrusk" and "Rus" (russian in old slavs language), but as with scotish there is no clear evidence.

joko said:

and it is traditional for both Scots and Albanians to wear Kilts,

Can you give me links, where descibe this? Albanian wore Kilts I mean.

joko said:

but I've also read about how various Irish and Albanian words are related.

Give links on reasech, or your own compare-analise at least.

[joko]

The Albanian Kilt is called a Fustanella www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NGdaLZnJU4 Here is a youtube video with lots of images and traditional paintings.