Utobach
Mladshiy Leytenant
Posts: 230
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Post by Utobach on Oct 3, 2005 18:34:12 GMT -5
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"Why do people want to unspin this tragedy and slap all the blame on one group who actually suffered the MOST losses of anyone."
Hm, who are you referring to... which group?
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"Calling someone a communist in the west might as well mean a Russian.Got the point now?"
No I don't. What does what the misinformed Westerners think have to do with it at all.
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"Until you people read either of the links provided there is no point in debating anything is there? Youmissed the point about the pro nazi Hurst and how media is used as propaganda."
The first LINE is "This man, who is so widely quoted in the bourgeois press, this veritable oracle of the bourgeoisie, deserves some specific attention at this point." If you post me communist information about communists am I supposed to say "oh I guess that settles it"? And how what media is used? The Ukrainian media?
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"These fabrications, which are well documented in this book, have become almost completely accepted as facts by Americans"
Almost 99% of Americans have no idea at all about anything we are talking about.
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"This book does not claim that no famine took place in Ukraine, or that there were not hardships related to the collectivization programs of the Soviets. The book is an examination of the stories published about the famine that did take place, and how those stories became politicized. "
Well when you say the word "myth" it tends to imply that it did not in fact happen. Who cares if they became politicized by Hearst, Hitler, or if Ghenghis Khan was reincarnated and somehow used it. Does that absolve the communists and make it a "myth"?
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The enemy of your enemy can still be your enemy you know...
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Post by CHORNYVOLK on Oct 3, 2005 20:09:08 GMT -5
Like I said already try reading it first.For example try chapter 8 the first few paragraphs where they quote Mikhail Hrushevsky who clearly states that droughts and bad weather had a lot to do with the famine that year and NOWHERE does he say it was against the Ukrainians!
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Post by CHORNYVOLK on Oct 3, 2005 21:24:36 GMT -5
page 126 and 127 are especially interesting to me as a Russian/Canadian .
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Post by Boleslaw on Oct 4, 2005 11:53:29 GMT -5
Calling someone a communist in the west might as well mean a Russian.Got the point now? Yet you are literally using Communist sources. Northstar Compass is a magazine dedicated to reviving the Soviet Union. Since when does a Tsarist use Communist sources. That's highly ironic dont you think? |
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Post by CHORNYVOLK on Oct 4, 2005 12:13:29 GMT -5
Maybe ironic but if it makes sense and it does what difference is the source . I also have my fathers opinion on this and he is well versed in Ukrainian nationalism Saw it first hand in the lagers. They were worse than nazis.
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Post by Яромip on Oct 4, 2005 12:20:08 GMT -5
You have a tendency to group people into rather broad categories. Surely 35 million Ukrainians would NOT aprove of what you describe? Perhaps Galitchina division wasn't so ruthless because it was staffed with Ukrainians, but because it was staffed with the lowest scum of the earth who would betray their own people?
There were plenty of Ukrainian militant groups who were anti -German and anti-Communist.
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Post by Boleslaw on Oct 4, 2005 12:26:16 GMT -5
They were worse than nazis. In what way? You mentioned Hrushevsky's account of the famine. Damnit, yesterday I returned his book back to the library. I'll check up on that when I get a chance, which maybe a while. In what way was the Galicia division staffed by "the lowest scum of the earth"? |
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Post by Яромip on Oct 4, 2005 14:46:49 GMT -5
Surely you know that it wasn't even a military division but a punitive unit within SS which slaughtered Slavs in Ukraine, Czehoslovakia and Yugoslavia.
Lvov legislature recently decided to grant them same benefits as the veterans of Great war who fought against the germans.
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Utobach
Mladshiy Leytenant
Posts: 230
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Post by Utobach on Oct 4, 2005 15:55:05 GMT -5
"Yet you are literally using Communist sources. Northstar Compass is a magazine dedicated to reviving the Soviet Union."
That was exactly my point. He is so into the Ukrainians=nazi thing he is willing to say communist=Russia and Russia=communism therefore communism=good (and communist sources ABOUT communist history= trustworthy). It is like me quoting Mein Kampf on Russia as the authority about Nazism and then saying "well you didn't read it... if you did that would settle it". I don't see how any Tsarist could be openly communist and pretend it makes sense. Again, like I said before, why did you say "in the West calling someone a communist might as well be calling them Russian"? If the West said that Russians were black would we become African nationalists? Or are you saying the West is right by becoming a commie all the sudden and making a self-fulfilling prophecy? I know I have made a few posts now but I am just shocked that COMMUNISM (created by the ENEMIES of the Slavs) is becoming an integral part of a Slavic NATIONALIST forum. I really don't know how else to put it.
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Post by CHORNYVOLK on Oct 4, 2005 16:02:56 GMT -5
Reading the replies I can tell no one read it so wtf are we debating?
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Utobach
Mladshiy Leytenant
Posts: 230
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Post by Utobach on Oct 4, 2005 16:31:19 GMT -5
I READ YOUR ARTICLE I GUESS YOU ARE RIGHT. While we're on the topic, here are some quotes to add to the discussion. These are quotes I got from my research. They prove beyond any doubt that Russia should not exist.
"Russians are inferior and barbaric." - Hitler
"Russians should not have their own state, because communist internationalist anti-Russian vomit is better and hopefully Chornyvolk will someday come over to our side and say our crimes never happened" - Lenin
This proves my theory that Russia should not exist and should be disintegrated right now. If you read the above quotes you really can't argue with me... because it is right there and black and white. Good thing I had those to back up my case and my case was SO brilliant. By the way, Russians suffered NO atrocities at the hands of the Nazis. I read on an NS site it was a war of liberation. So stop pretending. Also, I heard there was no Russian genocide at the hands of Jews with communism. That is a Ukrainian nationalist lie designed to make glorious communism look bad. All Russians were communists really in fact and they loved it. Communism is the greatest thing to ever happen to Russia. If I had those quotes I would paste them too, because if I did copy and paste then you would not be able to refute these obviously strong-as-iron sources.
Again, all this on a Slavic NATIONALIST board. Am I the only one here who thinks this makes no sense?
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Post by CHORNYVOLK on Oct 4, 2005 16:35:35 GMT -5
If you like to perpetuate lies about the famine that is your business. 9 million Ukrainians did not die and the famine was not directed at Ukrainians.
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Post by White Cossack on Oct 4, 2005 19:14:19 GMT -5
That is a pitiful display Chorny. Shame on you.
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Post by Slowianin on Oct 5, 2005 6:41:16 GMT -5
"If you like to perpetuate lies about the famine that is your business. 9 million Ukrainians did not die and the famine was not directed at Ukrainians."
Should I laugh or should I cry?
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Post by Яромip on Oct 5, 2005 8:34:01 GMT -5
Cry a little, and then shrug it off.
I personally get a lot of criticism when I try to show people that there was no mass extermination of jews. Forced relocation YES, but not extermination.
I can even point to ever-dwindling numbers of dead in holohoax (Auswitz is now down to 1 million dead from 4 million in 1945!)
Exaguration and perversion of facts is common in politics. We should not let it cloud our judgement.
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