And why the other lies: about Stalin's supposed "personal role;" the "deliberate starvation of the Ukraine," etc.? Why the use of false film footage and highly dubious photographs long proven to have been fakes?
The explanation is to be found in the motives of the "researchers." They have particular political interests and ideas to push. Responsible scholarship does not support these ideas. Therefore, they cannot accept the results of the best bourgeois research. Neither the nationalists nor Conquest are in the least interested in the truth about what happened in the USSR. Let's take a look at the motives behind these lies.
Self-Promotion The Ukrainian nationalist portray themselves as "champions" of the Ukraine. They hope to attract more support from the US ruling class as war between Soviet and US bosses comes nearer. Like all forms of nationalism, they serve the interests of the intellectual and other elites, who wold become the new ruling class if the Ukraine ever achieved "self-determination." [Note, 1996: this is exactly what has happened, and Ukrainian nationalists are fabricating anti-Communist lies harder than ever in an attempt to build Ukrainian nationalism to justify exploiting Ukrainian workers].
But Ukrainian workers and peasants would be no better off than they are now if their ruling class were Ukrainian. This point cannot be overstressed. Nationalism is a bourgeois, capitalist ideology. It can never serve the interests of the working class, because it urges the workers to "unite" behind those who exploit them -- the bosses of "their own" ethnic, linguistic, etc. group. The misery of the workers and peasants of India, South America, Africa, etc., now ruled by "their own" bosses instead of colonialists, proves this point. Ukrainian workers are now [1987 - ed.] exploited by Russian bosses; they'd be no better off under Ukrainian ones. But of course the nationalists have to try to show the opposite. Consequently, they must lie.
The Ukrainian nationalists are encouraged by the growth and success of fascist Cuban exiles, racist Zionists, and especially the reactionary Polish "Solidarity" movement in winning support from US bosses. They hope to do the same.
They also hope to use the famine to gain sympathy among US workers, where millions are aware of the Nazi murder of millions of Jews. They know that almost any lie can be spread without fear of serious contradiction, as long as it serves US bosses' anti- Communist purposes.
Pushing the issue of the famine also helps unite many Ukrainian emigrants behind them who otherwise would not support them. As we have seen, the Ukrainian nationalists never got much support from the Ukrainian masses.
To Cover Up Their Nazi Past Making noise about the famine also helps to cover up the nationalists' own dirty past. Ukrainian nationalists' support for Hitler has long held them back. The recent trial and deportation of John "Ivan the Terrible" Demyanyuk to Israel for participating in atrocities as a Ukrainian nationalist concentration guard for the Nazis was a serious public relations blow to the nationalist, whose staunch efforts to defend this fascist exposed them. (Last week PBS shows a BBC documentary on how the US government used Nazi war criminals to develop the US space program -- next issue of Challenge-Desafio will run an article about this).
The US Department of Justice's "Office of Special Investigations" (OSI) is the body charged with pursuing and prosecuting Nazi war criminals in the US. Naturally, they investigate few and prosecute fewer, since most of these Nazis have worked for the CIA. Still, of only 45 cases the OSI has brought against former Nazis, about one-fourth have been against Ukrainians, including several members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN). 2.
Ukrainian Fascists Useful to US Rulers Before and during WWII, the Ukrainian nationalists made themselves useful to the German Nazis. Since the Nazis' defeat, they've served the US ruling class, mainly in the CIA and Radio Liberty (which broadcasts US propaganda to the USSR).
Ukrainians are the largest linguistic minority in the Soviet Union. Separatist feeling among minority groups in the USSR is one of the thin reeds Western bosses lean on to weaken the Soviets.
As Frank Wisner, the CIA spymaster who helped to smuggle many Nazis and Nazi collaborators into the US after WWII, wrote in a secret 1951 memo:
"Operating independently, the SB [special torture squad of the Nazi-sponsored Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists/Bandera] has upon occasion been more of a headache to American intelligence than a boon. Nevertheless in war-time a highly nationalistic Ukrainian political group with its own security service could conceivably be a great asset ... Luckily the attempt [by some Allied authorities pursuing war criminals] to locate these anti-Soviet Ukrainians was sabotaged by a few far- sighted Americans who warned the persons concerned to go into hiding. 3.
Mykola Lebid, whose exploits we have already seen [in Part 3 of this series - ed.], was the head of the terrorist SB. 4.
But in order to win Ukrainian-Americans and others to anti- communism, the nationalists have to lie. They must cover up their role in Nazi collaboration; lie about the history of the Ukraine, to exaggerate its independence from Russia; and invent stories about the "horrors" of Soviet control. The film, and Conquest's book, do all of these.
Millions of Americans remember and hate Nazism. Most have not swallowed the notion that Stalin was "as bad as Hitler." Americans are still very suspicious of anyone who supported the murderous Nazis for any reason. The Ukrainian nationalists believe that their collaboration with the Nazis will seem more "understandable" only if millions of Ukrainians were deliberately and selectively starved to death by Communist monsters than if it is seen in its true light, as the logical result of elitism, anti-communism, and extreme nationalism.
So most of you just accept it as fact without reading why and the reasons behind such lies.
They push the lie that the attempt to build communism was a fraud from the beginning; that any attempt to build a classless society is inherently evil and will lead to mass murder. They hope to convince workers that any attempt to overthrow capitalism, or even question it in a fundamental way, is automatically illegitimate. Capitalists must often resort to fascism, usually to control the working class. Fascism is hard to justify to workers, while millions remember that it was the then-socialist Soviet Union, under Stalin, which led the way in defeating the German Nazis and Italian fascists during WWII. The purveyors of the "Ukrainian famine" myth, like anti- communists in general, wish to convince millions that anything -- including fascism -- is better than communism. This way of thinking gives capitalists the green light to carry out any horror, any atrocity, in the name of a "lesser of two evils."
"SURRENDER LIFE TO MOTHERLAND, SOUL TO GOD, AND HONOUR TO NOBODY!"
Phony Film and Photographs "The hour-long film ... depends heavily on still photographs of emaciated children and bodies being carted away to recreate the conditions in Ukraine in 1932."
"There can be no question that without the films and photographs uncovered from the 1932-33 famine, the film would lose much of its authority." 6
In 1935, a certain "Thomas Walker" published a five-part story on the famine in the chain of newspapers owned by the fanatical anti-Communist and pro-fascist tycoon William Randolph Hearst. Accompanying the series were photographs, supposedly of starving Ukrainian peasants, which Walker claimed he had taken personally. In March 1935, Louis Fischer, then a pro-Soviet reporter for The Nation, expressed some doubts about "Walker's" photos: "Mr Walker's photographs could easily date back to the Volga famine in 1921. many of them might have been taken outside the Soviet Union. They were taken at different seasons of the year ... One picture includes trees or shrubs with large leaves. Such leaves could not have grown by the `late spring' of Mr. Walker's alleged visit. Other photographs show winter and early fall backgrounds. Here is the Journal [Hearst's New York City newspaper] of the twenty-seventh. a starving, bloated boy of fifteen calmly poses naked for Mr. Walker. The next minute, in the same village, Mr. Walker photographs a man who is obviously suffering from the cold despite his thick sheepskin overcoat. The weather that spring must have been as unreliable as Mr. Walker to allow nude poses one moment and require furs the next."7
The famine stories ran in the Hearst press in February, 1935. Fischer's rejection of them appear early in march. By July, "Thomas Walker" was in a New York City jail, under arrest as Robert Green, an escaped convict from Colorado, where he was returned to serve out his sentence. Green admitted his photos were frauds, not taken in the Ukraine nor by himself. This was reported in all the New York City newspapers. The Daily Worker, paper of the then- revolutionary Communist Party USA, ran two detailed series about "Walker"/Green and some other phony accounts of the famine from July-20, 1935.
On November 17, 1986, Douglas Tottle, a Canadian researcher, exposed the sources of some of the fraudulent photos at a School Board meeting in Toronto, where Ukrainian nationalists and other anti-communists were trying to get the film and a course based upon it into the Toronto high school curriculum.
Stunned by Tottle's dramatic presentation, and in the presence of reporters from all the Toronto newspapers, Ukrainian nationalist professors began to run for cover. One of them, Orest Subtelny, admitted the still shots were from the 1921-22 famine but justified their use by saying the film lacked "impact" without them. "`You have to have visual impact. You want to show what people dying from a famine look like. Starving children are starving children,' said Subtelny. He offered no apologies for the deliberate attempt to mislead."
Another nationalist who had done research for the film is Marco Carynnyk. an article of his appeared in the November 1983 issue of Commentary, a US neo-conservative Zionist monthly, in which Carynnyk bitterly attacked Louis Fischer and Walter Duranty (New York Times Soviet correspondent during the `30s) for "covering up" the famine. but Tottle's revelations forced Carynnyk to admit he'd been a party to the real cover-up. According to the Toronto Star of November 20:
"Researcher Marco Carynnyk, who says he originated the idea of the film, says his concerns about questionable photographs were ignored.
Carynnyk said that none of the archival film footage used in the movie is of the Ukrainian famine and that `very few photos from `32-33' appear that can be traced as authentic.
A dramatic shot at the film's end of an emaciated girl, which has also been used in the film's promotional material, is not from the 1932-33 famine, Carynnyk said.
`I made the point that this sort of inaccuracy cannot be allowed,' he said in an interview. `I was ignored.'"
Carynnyk is suing the St. Vladimir's Institute, the nationalist sponsors of the film, for breach of contract and for copyright infringements. Rumor has it that the filmmakers doctored or distorted some of the interviews which Carynnyk made for the film.
Carynnyk's complaints at the November 17 Toronto Board of Ed meeting are dishonest, of course. The film has been out for three years. Yet Carynnyk never made public his "reservations" about the film's dishonesty until Tottle publicly exposed it. Neither did any of his cronies, with whom he has now apparently fallen out.
The Ukrainian nationalists' admissions clearly prove their intent to deceive. perhaps a few of the still photos of starving people cannot be traced to any source. So what? The nationalists now admit they knew that many others which they used were fraudulent, and that -- we may take Carynnyk's word for it -- none of the film footage used is of the famine.
This has been suggested before. Uniforms and other datable characteristics have suggested to Soviet experts that most - -perhaps even all -- of the footage shown while the narrator is discussing the famine is in fact not of the Ukraine during the `30s, but of the Civil War period (1918-21), or even from W.W.I (1914-18).
Even one of the panelists, Harrison Salisbury, refers to the fact: "it doesn't really disturb me that - I am certain from my familiarity with a lot of documentaries -- that it's a mishmash of all kinds of things put together. It may not be specifically accurate that each one of these horrible corpses actually was in the Ukraine or was in some other place, but in general, there were people exactly like that." 8 Salisbury stresses that he sees nothing wrong with this kind of deception, showing this "honest" anti-Communist's essential similarity to the Ukrainian nationalists. Anti-communism has a certain logic to it: it always ends up as fascism.
Researcher Tottle is publishing a book on the fraudulent scholarship surrounding the "Ukrainian famine" story. It is scheduled to appear within the next six months.
Nationalist `Scholars' and the Intent to Deceive In a 1984 discussion, James Mace revealed there were two main sources of photos: "Walker's," and the German edition of a book by Ewald Ammende, an Austrian relief worker, published in 1935. Several statements here and in another article of Mace's published that year prove Mace knew that some of the photos were of suspicious origin.
First, Mace makes no mention of any film footage, which he certainly would have it he had known of any. 9 Second, Mace knew there was something wrong with the "Walker" and Ammende photos. He stated: "...he [Dalrymple, another anti- Communist] -- like Ewald Ammende before him -- was taken in by accounts in the Hearst press in 1935, which were updated to indicate that the famine continued into 1934, whereas any of the numerous eyewitnesses who came to the West after World War II would have told him that the famine actually ended in 1933. 10 How could a man who had supposedly traveled to the countryside and personally taken pictures of starving peasants have postdated his account by a whole year?
Third, Mace knew the "Walker" and Ammende accounts. In the 1984 pamphlet Mace makes this revelation about Ammende's book: "The English translation, Human Life in Russia, took some photographs from the Walker account and omitted some that appeared in the German edition, which was published in Vienna in 1935." 11 In fact, the English edition of Ammende's book states that the photos of starving people -- the same ones "Walker" claimed he had taken himself -- were the work of a "Dr. F. Dittloff, for many years director of the German Government Agricultural Concession (Drusag) in the North Caucasus."
"The photographs were taken by Dr. Dittloff himself in the summer of 1933, and they demonstrate the conditions then prevailing on the plains of the agricultural areas of the Hunger Zone. A few of them have been published before elsewhere without his permission. Dr. Dittloff accepts full responsibility for the guarantee of their authenticity (emphasis added)." 12
Both Mace and Conquest were obviously aware of the serious questions as to whether the photos are genuine, since they refer to both Ammende's book and Walker's articles, which contradict each other. They also refer to a book by James Crowl on the journalism of the 1930s, which outlines Louis Fischer's views. Neither Mace nor Conquest reveal any of these matters to their audience.
Mace has worked for years with Ukrainian nationalist committees. He wrote introductions both for Ammende's book (reissued in 1984) and for Alexa Woropay's nationalist tract, The Ninth Circle, both of which give contradictory sources for some of the still photos. Anyone who kept the "Walker" clips from 1935 would have also known of "Walker"'s disgrace the same year. Clearly Mace knew of this, and was a party to the fraud from the beginning.
I am not going to post in this topic anymore. Your hatred of some Ukrainians has driven you to embrace communism. I see it with these irrational "Polish nazi" posts you make here and there too. You are no different from the Ukrainians who hated the Russians so much and so irrationally they rushed to the arms of the Nazis just because anyone on the planet is better than what they view as their main enemy. They embraced the enemies of our race like you are doing because they hate their brothers THAT much. You are a broken record, repeating the same things about how Ukrainian nationalists blah blah blah and arguing over whether it is 6, 7, or a mere 9 million killed, and talking about trivial garbage like when a certain picture was taken (therefore meaning it was a "myth"). You don't stop to think for half a second what you are saying or implying because all you care about are the Ukrainians and their neo-Nazi international conspiracy that has brainwashed all the West (which doesn't even KNOW or CARE what we are talking about). You would have made a fine and humorous oxymoron of a tsarist turned NKVD officer (well you are Russian so you wouldn't be chosen to be one) back in the day. In embracing the communists and covering their crimes you do not betray just Ukrainian Slavs... far from it... you betray memories of Russians and Russia as well and also all Slavs in general who fought these enemies of our people. Covering early communism too on top of it. Not just the inept and broken but at least Slavic later communism. I used to read a lot of your posts and enjoy quite a few of them but now I have lost respect for you because you really won't change your mind about this. It is like a non-Russian Slav saying "there were no crimes against the Russians by Nazis in WWII, that is a myth started by the Russians and communists". Only for you I guess "Russians" and "communists" are interchangeable as long as it involves fighting your fellow Slavs so I don't even need the word "and" in there. Almost everyone on this board has known for awhile that I believe the cradle of our future lies with Russia and of my strong Russophillia but unfortunately I have to say BECAUSE of that and the desecration of what Russia truly is by equating it to our enemies I have to come to this conclusion about losing respect for a regular (and sometimes good) poster... I really don't know else to say, it is too bad.
You are thinking straight.Who do you think was behind Yushenko and Timoshenko .The attacks on Russia have not ended are are still ongoing.Who do you think is supplying the money for this a Martian? And I am not pro communist but pro truth.Too bad you can't have the decency to read the material before commenting on something you know very little about. I grew up in Toronto with racism from that UNA trash and am very familiar with them . They are fed hate for Russians from the mother tit from birth.
Last Edit: Jan 9, 2006 17:45:09 GMT -5 by CHORNYVOLK
"SURRENDER LIFE TO MOTHERLAND, SOUL TO GOD, AND HONOUR TO NOBODY!"
Registered: Jan 2003 Location: u. Karla Marksa Posts: 8498 It was Man Made, it was as a result of the Civil War and of people who resisted Collectivization.
But it could not have killed 8 million, with only Eastern Ukraine the area should have become empty of people. Without Western Ukraine the population could not have been more than 14 million. The WW1 and Civil War had a toll on the area.
Another 5 million died in WW2. Ukraine should have been like a ghost town with close to 15 million deaths over 40 years.
It was not, and there was internal migration to build up industry.
__________________ Made in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics with synthetic ingredients
The attacks on Russia have not ended are are still ongoing
Tha attacks are not only on Russian people!!! It is this sort of myopic view that prevents us from adequate reaction to these attacks.
Look what is happening in Serbia and Makedonia! Polish population is still pouring OUT of Polska despite (because of?) its entry into Jewropean Union. They are used for cheap menial labor in Europe and US/Canada along with turks, arabs and mexicans! Cleaning ladies here in New York are almost exclusively mexican and polish.
In Crimea we have tartars burning down churches and crosses.
Czech industry was totally bought up by the Germans as soon as "iron curtain" disappeared.
Attacks are not only on "Russia" and russian people, but ALL Slavs and ALL that is Slavic. I for one refuse to torn away and boxed in by imaginary lines on the map. My loyalty is to ALL Slavic people not just Russian/Ukrainian ones.
Nationalism has to be expressed as a style, as a way of life, before it can become an electoral movement.
Post by CHORNYVOLK on Nov 27, 2005 18:45:40 GMT -5
7 million people did not die in the Ukrainian famine. It is not borne out by either regional or national demographics. If you think differently, please show me such statistics. I can prove it to you by common sense. The whole Soviet population was around 180,000,000 at the time. 30,000,000 were in the Ukraine. A famine of 7,000,000 deaths within 4 years would so devastate a region that there would be hardly anyone left to raise future crops or develop new industrial production. Add to this the millions of death during WW II, and the figures become ridiculous.
How would they have made up such a shortfall? Russian immigraton, you say? Well, how many pure Russian-speakers are there in the Ukraine now? Did they become "assimilated" into such a "devastated" population? And how could any significant number have settled in a "famine-devastated Ukraine" without depopulating major areas of Central Russia? The whole claim is nonsense, and is bandied around by Ukrainian nationalists to try to "top" Holocaust figures and take the heat off themselves as aiders and abettors of the real 6-7 million-figure mass murder.
"SURRENDER LIFE TO MOTHERLAND, SOUL TO GOD, AND HONOUR TO NOBODY!"
Post by CHORNYVOLK on Nov 27, 2005 18:47:59 GMT -5
During the years 1930--1935, the Soviet Union was short of labor, especially in newly developed regions.
In 1932, the Ukrainian population was 25 million inhabitants. To kill 7-9 million people would have been economic and demographic suicide. The entire industrialised workforce of the SU at the time was only around eight million workers.
The main proponent of the 'Terror Famine' hypothesis is a former OUN and Nazi collaborator called Dushnyck. He invented a 'scientific' method to calculate the dead during the `famine-genocide'.
"(Taking the data according to the 1926 census ... and the January 17, 1939 census ... and the average increase before the collectivization ... (2.36 per cent per year), it can be calculated that Ukraine ... lost 7,500,000 people between the two censuses."
These calculations are meaningless.
The world war, the civil wars and the great famine of 1920-1922 all provoked a drop in the birth rate. The new generation born in that period reached physical maturity, 16 years of age, around 1930. The structure of the population would necessarily lead to a drop in the birthrate in the thirties.
Free abortion had also dramatically reduced the birthrate during the thirties, to the point where the government banned it in 1936 to increase the population.
The years 1929-1933 were characterized by great, violent struggles in the countryside, accompanied by times of genuine famine. Economic and social conditions of this kind reduce the birthrate.
The number of people registered as Ukrainians changed through inter-ethnic marriages, changes in the declared nationality and by migrations.
The borders of the Ukraine were not even the same in 1926 and 1939. The Kuban Cossaks, between 2 and 3 million people, were registered as Ukrainian in 1926, but were reclassified as Russian at the end of the twenties. This new classification explains by itself 25 to 40 per cent of the `victims of the famine-genocide' calculated by Dushnyck.
In addition, the Soviet State Archives (GARF) were opened in the early 90s. A team of American professors analysed the data relating to the deportations. Their research was published in the American Historical Review in October 1993.
It can be quickly summed up.
During the most violent period of the collectivization, in 1930--1931, the Bolsheviks expropriated 381,026 kulaks and sent their families to unplowed land to the East. These included 1,803,392 persons. As of 1 January 1932, there were 1,317,022 people in the new establishments. The difference is of 486,000. The disorganization helping, many of the deported were able to escape during the trip, which often took three months or more. (To give an idea, of the 1,317,022 settled, 207,010 were able to flee during the year 1932.)
Others, whose case was reviewed, were allowed to return home. An undetermined number, that we have estimated at 100,000, died during the travels, mainly because of epidemics. The considerable number of deaths during displacements must be seen in the context of that epoch: a weak administration, precarious living conditions for the entire population, sometimes chaotic class struggles among the peasant population overtaken by leftism. The Party's position is clearly stated in one of the numerous reports about this problem, this one dated 20 December 1931 by the person responsible for a work camp at Novossibirsk.
The high mortality observed for convoys nos 18 to 23 coming from the North Caucasus --- 2,421 persons out of 10,086 upon departure --- can be explained by the following reasons:
1. A negligent, criminal approach to the selection of deported contingents, among whom were many children, aged over 65 years of age and sick people;
2. The non-respect of directives about the right for deportees to bring with them provisions for two months of transfer.
3. The lack of clean water, which forced the deported to drink unclean water. Many are dead of dysentery and of other epidemics.'
Conquest `calculated' that 3,500,000 kulaks were 'exterminated' in the camps.
But the total number of dekulakized in the colonies never exceeded 1,317,022! And between 1932 and 1935, the number of departures exceeded by 299,389 the number of arrivals. From 1932 to the end of 1940, the exact number of deaths, essentially due to natural causes, was 389,521. And this number does not just include dekulakized, since after 1935 other categories were in the colonies as well.
According to GARF, only 35,000 people were judicially executed for serious crimes between 1930 and 1933, with the bulk of these (30,000) being executed in 1930 and 1931. Not all of these were Kulaks or even Ukrainians.
These are the FACTS
"SURRENDER LIFE TO MOTHERLAND, SOUL TO GOD, AND HONOUR TO NOBODY!"
TsarSamuil: Medicines aren't allowed to be sold on the market without a 15 year trial period, to determine short n long term effects. Sputnik just turned 1 year, others not even that, just months, how can we determine long term effects without the data from long term
Aug 24, 2021 11:22:20 GMT -5
TsarSamuil: exposure? Does anyone have a time machine to go 14 years or so into the future n come back n say whether we have good vaccines? Fear makes world abandon its own standards..Besides, vaccines for other illnesses that have been developed for YEARS actually
Aug 24, 2021 11:23:40 GMT -5
TsarSamuil: help. These covid vaccines are literally SHIT, why else do they demand you take 1, 2 n now 3 shots? The problem is also a disease becomes resilient if u administer a weak vaccine that doesn't do the job proper. Allow illness to survive just makes it strong
Aug 24, 2021 11:25:04 GMT -5
TsarSamuil: instead if we go by the book, we should all wait for a really good vaccine to take out the illness for good. Now...we may never get rid of it..but understandably the world economy has a hard time dealing with lock downs, but that is just needless panic
Aug 24, 2021 11:27:06 GMT -5
TsarSamuil: why Swe had fared well with country not being locked down? Because they are cold people, keeping distance was the thing before covid-19 was ever heard of, I hope world doesn't become like that, but some could use a little common sense n change in behavior.
Aug 24, 2021 11:29:12 GMT -5
TsarSamuil: It's no wonder covid hits so many Arabs in the country, stupid bastards..
Aug 24, 2021 11:29:38 GMT -5
TsarSamuil: If I go to H&M a new shirt, if an Arab wants to buy a pair of pants, not only is his whole family along, his friends, even his freaking grandmother is along n all chattering along in a big dumb group of ignorance..
Aug 24, 2021 11:33:05 GMT -5
Boro: Thx for the response. I'm not sure... It seems the vaccines work, at least people aren't dying of Covid. Those who get ill have a problem, it's not "just a flu". Maybe it's from a chinese laboratory, who knows...
Aug 24, 2021 13:46:55 GMT -5
Boro: I agree regarding Arabs..
Aug 24, 2021 13:50:39 GMT -5
Boro: Be glad, Sweden isn't overpopulated.
Aug 24, 2021 14:11:49 GMT -5
TsarSamuil: true, vaccines do help somewhat, maybe better than nothing..I hope in 2022 we can come out of this nightmare..
Aug 24, 2021 15:38:24 GMT -5
Boro: Horrible times, indeed.
Aug 24, 2021 15:47:41 GMT -5