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Post by jaropolk on Dec 10, 2007 15:58:12 GMT -5
You will be surprised how gentically Russians and Poles are close. There was a topic on the forum a long time ago, search the forums. Unfortunately genes did not help us much in our common Slavic history, did they? Take for example the 20th century in the Balkans, or killing between Poles and Ukrainians. Genetic similarity didn't help Czechs when Poles invaded Czechoslovakia together with (actually a little bit afterwards) Hitler. Genetic similarity with Russians won't help Poles to realize that American rockets are aimed at their own existence and their own future, neither it shall help western Ukrainians to realize that their future is not in EU/NATO but instead in strong political/economical/military ties with Mother Russia. I think that genetic origins are important but what is pointed by jaropolk is that language, culture, religion in one word spiritual bonds are much, much stronger and that is after all this is what binds people of the same nation together. I am glad we share the same opinion  |
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Srbopol
Kapitan
Слава/Sława
Posts: 494
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Post by Srbopol on Dec 10, 2007 16:55:03 GMT -5
By carefully reading all the posts here I think that jaropolk, vara and ярад were the only ones providing some concrete proofs, concrete argumentation and mature objectivity, instead of childish emotions that many others has shown here. They provided links, concrete words, concrete historical events/persons/processes etc... Most of us are no experts in linguistics, however although we are not experts we can see if one has some arguments or not. Therefore I appeal to people to give us some proofs, argumentation instead of saying only: "I know Russian and there is many French words in Russian" giving us no examples, no citations, no proofs and asking for translation when a sentence in Russian appears. If we do not have any arguments we cannot ask for moderators to ban other people just because they have arguments for their standpoints we do not like... P.S. By saying that e.g. jaropolk's argumentation is convincing does not mean that I think that Polish is the least Slavic language. I am just saying that I haven't heard any other contra argumentation (unless one thinks that " Poles killed many Germans" is some sort of argument). Imentioned the killing issue medo, the point i was getting at was that in JaroPolks vision of less slavic speaking Slavs in what ever studies he basis that on, are never going to be as Slavic despite there achievments or what ever they do in honour of Slavicness..... |
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Post by White Cossack on Dec 10, 2007 18:14:59 GMT -5
With God's help... Back to the topic.
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krzysiek
Mladshiy Leytenant
Slavic and Proud
Posts: 231
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Post by krzysiek on Dec 10, 2007 19:16:31 GMT -5
It is not the first time I read this statement on the forum and an accusation of Polish colaboration with the Nazi Germany during invasion of the Czech Rep. While it is convenient for your anti-Polish views to word it like that it is also ignorant, as it is not based on facts. I advise you to read more about the Zaolzie region and the conflict between Czechs and Poles over it, before you post stupid suggestions like that. I can only tell you that Poland was invaded by Czechs in 1919 while we were engaging Bolshevics and Zaolzie was taken away from us, then during the Nazi invasion on Czech Rep. we just took advantage of the situation to take it back. It is not the same as invading WITH Hitler as you are trying to imply.
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Post by vara on Dec 10, 2007 19:34:31 GMT -5
I found it intriguing that one of the posters accused me of antisemitism. Why, I did NOT mention Jews at all! Indeed. had the poster cared to access my website, "Art and Faith" (listed in my profile), they would have seen articles focusing on Isaak Levitan and General Lev Dovator, both personalities of Jewish nationality, and commented upon favourably, I might add! Of my videos, one is dedicated to the memory of General Dovator, and another uses the beautiful artwork of Mr Levitan (one of the greats in the Russian art world, if you ask me) to accompany one of our romantsy. The accusation does not stand on all fours, it does none of us any credit, and, truly, it should be withdrawn. What I am seeing is not good.  It appears as though there are those who do not wish to have an adult conversation, rather, all they wish to do is to have a testosterone-fueled mudfight. Whether one cares for it or no, Russia is the largest Slavic state, and Poland is only one-sixth of its size. Therefore, they cannot be coevals. My remarks stand. One of my grandfathers served in the Guards in Petersburg, and some of his brother officers were Poles, and they were rather upstanding fellows, I might add! Not all Poles hated Russians then, and I believe that such is still true today. Vara |
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krzysiek
Mladshiy Leytenant
Slavic and Proud
Posts: 231
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Post by krzysiek on Dec 10, 2007 19:52:59 GMT -5
I said in my first post here that I wouldn't expect Poland and Russia to be coevals. I think that all the nations should be fairly represented in the Union. There is no way I personally (not that my personal opinion would change anything) would accept Poland being in a Union that would be created as a single state with a capitol in Moscow. I don't want Polish lands to be governed by Russians, that's all. Just like, I'm sure, you would not want Russian Federation to be ruled by Poles. Switch the roles for a llittle moment and think of what you'd do if Poland was as big as Russia and Russia was Poland's size. I don't think you'd be too happy with us taking control of your nation on the basis of our size. I hope you'll understand my argument. Poland has struggled for its independence for too long to give it away by forming a Slavic State. Union, on the other hand, formed by multiple Slavic nations, each retaining its individuality, and having one overseeing governing body composed of a fair ratio of representatives from each member state would be fine in my book.
It is not my intention to disrespect anyone.
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Post by vara on Dec 10, 2007 20:04:21 GMT -5
Nevertheless, a Slavic Union would need a city to meet in! To be frank, emotion rules out both Moskva and Warshava! My choice would be Bratislava. Yes, it is one of the furthest west of the Slavic cities, but, its choice would be symbolic. It would tell the world that we intend to give none of our territory, minds, or hearts over to godless Westernism and all its works. In short, it would be a talisman of our vigilance. Without that... the zapadniki shall exercise divide et impera. Sadly, that is what they are doing in Poland today (and attempting in Russia as well, I might add!)  Vara |
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Srbopol
Kapitan
Слава/Sława
Posts: 494
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Post by Srbopol on Dec 10, 2007 21:13:09 GMT -5
a Jewish person's art in the Russian art world, so clearly not a Russian painting at all or you see it as so? Im sorry for the questioning but its nice to find out you views on such an issue seeing as you said you was from an emigre background?
You are shocked at the comment on antisemitism or just antisemitism itself?
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Post by White Cossack on Dec 10, 2007 21:14:10 GMT -5
It is not the first time I read this statement on the forum and an accusation of Polish colaboration with the Nazi Germany during invasion of the Czech Rep. While it is convenient for your anti-Polish views to word it like that it is also ignorant, as it is not based on facts. I advise you to read more about the Zaolzie region and the conflict between Czechs and Poles over it, before you post stupid suggestions like that. I can only tell you that Poland was invaded by Czechs in 1919 while we were engaging Bolshevics and Zaolzie was taken away from us, then during the Nazi invasion on Czech Rep. we just took advantage of the situation to take it back. It is not the same as invading WITH Hitler as you are trying to imply. Yeah, and the SU just took advantage of WWII to take back old Rus lands Poles had stolen from Ukraine. I hope you don't apply double standards here. |
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Post by morozov on Dec 10, 2007 23:13:36 GMT -5
"Rzespublika" must be kind of hermetic science ... not for profanes like me. For the great historian Vara only lol.
Then enlighten me Vara how is Russian closer to Old Slavonic being heavily influenced by German and French. Even Russian names for months (on the contrary to Polish ones) are latinised. It must be this Old Slavonic heritage lol.
I'm a native speaker of both Russian and Polish (unfortunately my Ukrainian is still bad but I'm working on it). So take it for granted - there is no Slavic language which would be closer to Polish than Slovak. So Slovak must be "the least Slavic language" too lol. In border areas one can hardly see any difference. You better stop bubbling about Jesuits in "Rzespublika" and "incorporation" of Ukraine and Poland you troll. Because of people like you there is no chance even for cooperation! What can be a cooperation with someone denying THE EXISTENCE of my nation or dreaming of "incorporating" my country. Dream on chauvinist but it's definitely not our dream. Just now I'm visiting my friends in Poland - Ukrainians and Poles. They are probably terrible "Russophobes" because NOBODY is ready for your kind of"incorporation".
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Post by morozov on Dec 10, 2007 23:21:46 GMT -5
PS. For people who care about Slavic history. There is no something like "Rzespublika". Using it in argumentation proves the highest level of ignorance.
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Post by vara on Dec 10, 2007 23:58:29 GMT -5
Firstly, any art history written in Russia (and I have read the standard texts) mentions Levitan. Not only is he mentioned, he is given high honours as one of the leaders of the Peredvizhniki. As he was held in high regard by his contemporaries Ilya Repin, Vasili Surikov, Ivan Shishkin, and Valentin Serov, I need add nothing. Only an antisemite (unfortunately) would not consider Levitan one of the greats of the Russian art world. In fact, his best canvasses (such as Eternal Peace and Evening Bells) have Orthodox subjects, as all educated Russians know (and appreciate!). I would direct the questioner to visit the Tretyakov and the Russki Muzei (as I have done) and see for themselves how much in the mainstream of RUSSIAN art Levitan was!
In further reply to the late hostile questioner, the Rzespublika was the elective monarchy of Poland that fell in the 18th century after the partitions. A multi-ethnic and multi-confessional state, one of the forces driving it apart was the extreme Catholicism that entered during the reign of Sigismund Wasa. Things such as the Brest Unia and the murder of Patriarch St Germogen alienated (rather naturally, no?) its Orthodox subjects.
Had there been no anti-Orthodox persecution fomented by foreign-trained Jesuits, the Polish state probably would not have collapsed. You see, the Rzespublika was not an ethnographic Polish state, it was a multi-ethnic entitity with a majority population of Orthodox (not only were the Poles a minority in the state as a whole, I believe they were a minority in the major cities as well).
Therefore, none of "Morozov's" points stand.
Vara
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krzysiek
Mladshiy Leytenant
Slavic and Proud
Posts: 231
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Post by krzysiek on Dec 11, 2007 0:57:55 GMT -5
I don't get your way of thinking. I think you may be just posting this for the sake of argument, but here is my reply.
While you may see only striking similarity between these two events (for whatever reason) I see major differences which set them appart. The most important is that SU signed a pact with the Nazi Germany to partition Poland even before the official Nazi invation, thus making SU a Nazi collaborator. They didn't take advantage, they orchestrated the whole thing together. I would even dare to go as far as to say that had Hitler not attacked the SU, which has been his plan in the first place, SU would never join the allies in their struggle to destroy the Nazi's. Poland on the other hand has never signed any agreements with the Nazis.
The claim of the Ukrainian and Belarussian lands being historically Russian is unfounded. These lands are as much Russian as they are Polish and Lithuanian. Poland only laid claims to these lands based on the borders on the Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth. I'm not saying these lands are rightfully Polish because they're not, but they aren't Russian either. I believe that present day Ukraine and Belarus should be left alone and remain independent states.
What about 3 partitions of Pol - Lith. Commonwealth? What about the post war Poland and Eastern Germany falling under SU domination? Were these lands also stolen from Mother Russia and later regained???
If there is one thing that Polish history has thought me it's not to trust Russia. Their intentions are never pure (neither are American but that's a different topic).
Stalin was an opportunist, power hungry totalitarian murderer. All he cared about was power and to take as much land as possible under his domain.
It is also funny how Russians defend Soviet Union's actions, like you are now, but when it comes to taking responsibility for all the atrocities that come with the legacy of the SU they blame it on the Jews. LOL
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Post by pastir on Dec 11, 2007 4:12:44 GMT -5
The claim of the Ukrainian and Belarussian lands being historically Russian is unfounded. These lands are as much Russian as they are Polish and Lithuanian. Both the Soviet Union and the Imperial Russia styled themselves as countries of all East Slavs, thus to the degree that they truly were countries of all East Slavs in their character theese lands belonged with them. I don`t think Poland on the other hand ever claimed the mantle of the Kievan Rus or made it its historical mission to collect the Rus lands. It is also funny how Russians defend Soviet Union's actions, like you are now, but when it comes to taking responsibility for all the atrocities that come with the legacy of the SU they blame it on the Jews. LOL A straight question. Do you belive the atrocities you speak of would have happened if Russia was not under the Communist boot? Because if you don`t you are a hypocrite blaming the crimes of the regime on its biggest victims. As for "defending" the Soviet Union, it is not defended at all. Its actions are just contrasted with what historicaly Poland did to point out its deeds (minus the communist attrocities and cynsim of which the Russians were the biggest victims) are something that is not unprecedented and extrodinary at all, but often has a precedan with Poland herself. But it does not mean support for those actions. I believe that present day Ukraine and Belarus should be left alone and remain independent states. As do we. I don`t think anybody here would support their being invaded by anyone. But we are not talking about that. We are talking about a voluntary union. It is one thing to say you do not think such a union would be in the best interest of the Belorus, but it is quite another to say they simply shouldn`t join with Russia. You wouldn`t want to deny the soverign people of Belarus their right of self-determination and the right to determine their own future for themselves, would you. It is not the first time I read this statement on the forum and an accusation of Polish colaboration with the Nazi Germany during invasion of the Czech Rep. While it is convenient for your anti-Polish views to word it like that it is also ignorant, as it is not based on facts. I advise you to read more about the Zaolzie region and the conflict between Czechs and Poles over it, before you post stupid suggestions like that. I can only tell you that Poland was invaded by Czechs in 1919 while we were engaging Bolshevics and Zaolzie was taken away from us, then during the Nazi invasion on Czech Rep. we just took advantage of the situation to take it back. It is not the same as invading WITH Hitler as you are trying to imply. Taking the advantage of the situation in this case meant vocaly supporting Hitler in his demands for the Sudeten and using its diplomatic influence to push for partition of Czechoslovakia. Not shying away from the truth has nothing to do with being anti-Polish. |
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Post by morozov on Dec 11, 2007 6:04:42 GMT -5
If somebody even start to think about Slavic Union, whatever it means, there is an important assumption for the beginning:
RESPECT for culture, history, heritage, language etc. of other Slavic nations. Even these quite small like Lusitians.
The aggressive language used here by Vara or Jaropolk, their open hatred against Ukrainian, Poles
and in general Catholic Slavs make me believe you are just provocateurs.
Yes, tell us we have to convert to Orthodoxy and use Russian instead our national languages. And Russia will friendly "incorporate" us. It's sick, anti-Slavic and will NEVER happen. You may cry a river over Kosovo and flood the sea with your laments on the inter-Slavic conflicts but I do not believe your intention anymore.
Not to mention the ignorance of Vara with her misterious "Rzespublika". LOL.
Oh, please enligten us ! What does it mean ? I'm all ear.
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It appears as though there are those who do not wish to have an adult conversation, rather, all they wish to do is to have a testosterone-fueled mudfight.
