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Post by TsarSamuil on Sept 11, 2008 9:04:32 GMT -5
That's what I have been trying to say.
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Post by Orao on Sept 11, 2008 10:27:20 GMT -5
good point Its obvious that Putin mistaken. But, hardly that politician of his calibar could made such a huge diplomatic blow. In any case we now with good reason can think that he sold Serbs. My point that it wasn't Putin to sell Serbs. There are Serbs that sold themselves. It wasn't Putin who voted for Tadic. My opinion that the most part of Serbs told everyone that they don't need any help and all the attempts to help them are not needed any more. They need only free visas to travel over Europe and they don't need any Kosovo. I support Srebs since bery long time but I really can not understand you, guys. You have to understand the hell people have been through in that part of the world the last 15 years or so. I'm sure the majority of ordinary Serbs do not and never will want an independent Kosovo but they do want somewhat of a normal life. The Tadic camp and EU seem to promise that in at least some way. |
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Post by Gerasim on Sept 11, 2008 10:36:11 GMT -5
good point Its obvious that Putin mistaken. But, hardly that politician of his calibar could made such a huge diplomatic blow. In any case we now with good reason can think that he sold Serbs. My point that it wasn't Putin to sell Serbs. There are Serbs that sold themselves. It wasn't Putin who voted for Tadic. My opinion that the most part of Serbs told everyone that they don't need any help and all the attempts to help them are not needed any more. They need only free visas to travel over Europe and they don't need any Kosovo. I support Srebs since bery long time but I really can not understand you, guys. You mixed it up totally. How is voting for Tadic voting against Kosovo, or voting for Europe over Kosovo? That's simply not true. Please elaborate. |
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gleb
Starshiy Leytenant
Posts: 363
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Post by gleb on Sept 12, 2008 4:21:30 GMT -5
I don't see how Tadic can hold Kosovo. All that modern Serbia can do is not to recognize Kosovo.
Tadic took his seat on the floor between the 2 chairs huging the European chair. He played his European card instead of making some alliances with the stronger partners. During the Yugoslavian war UN and USA explained clearly that they won't count the interests of Serbia and they will divide it into 100 pieces if needed. It is very naive to think that anyone will return to Kosovo discussion later.
So why do you want some leaders to keep fighting for you if everything is done to make this fight useless?
Orao, I know something about the hell you're talkin' about. I live in Russia almost 26 years. Some of my relatives live in Ukraine, some in Belarus. I know how is it when your country falls into pieces. I know what is it when your neighboor dies in Chechnya. I know what the life in poverty of 90-s is. When the fat Americans come to school to see poor Russian children with - like a safari somewhere in Africa.
Maybe I'm not right and I don't see good your political situation. But explain me please, what did Serbs to save their territorial integrity?
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Post by pastir on Sept 12, 2008 9:19:28 GMT -5
You mixed it up totally. How is voting for Tadic voting against Kosovo, or voting for Europe over Kosovo? That's simply not true. Please elaborate. Now who is being naive? |
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Post by pastir on Sept 12, 2008 9:21:55 GMT -5
I don't see how Tadic can hold Kosovo. It is not about wether he can or he can not. It is about the fact he doesn`t give a flying fuck about it to begin with. |
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Post by pastir on Sept 12, 2008 9:48:33 GMT -5
My point that it wasn't Putin to sell Serbs. He signed under the faked Western-Muslim version of history on this specific event. (Out of comformity, because he thought he can more easily make his point if he does, perhaps without trully beliving their version of Srebrenica is true.) That is the worst we can do. Once we start accepting the lies of our enemies about us, instead of combating them, is the day we are doomed. You want to live in a world where Srebrenica was a genocide, Red Army lost 20 million soldiers in the WWII, the Soviet Union was saved by lend and lease, Russians are autocratic by nature, Zakaev is a freedom fighter, holodomor was a Russian genocide of Ukrainians, Russians are inferior, uneducated, drunken racists, Russia is bent on extorting the West with its oil? In isolation, this incident was not a big thing. But it must not go further. Today we sign under Srebrenica lies to make a point, tommorow under something else and at the end we have implicitly confirmed every smear against us by our enemies. Sure Putin is a Russian so why should he care about the Serbs when even the Serbs don`t seem to care. But he should be smarter than that. Lies about Serbs come from the same bowl lies about Russians come from. Admiting one such lie grants legitimacy to the lie-maker and by extension to his other lies. And there is no use in comparing Tadic and Putin. Tadic is a despicable, slimey Western stooge. But Putin should know better. |
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Post by balkannj on Sept 12, 2008 10:51:50 GMT -5
"I know how is it when your country falls into pieces. I know what is it when your neighboor dies in Chechnya. I know what the life in poverty of 90-s is. When the fat Americans come to school to see poor Russian children with - like a safari somewhere in Africa."
Yet you don't know what it is to be bombed by NATO night and day for 78 days continuously with no end in sight while it happened. You don't know what it is like to see 100s of thousands of Russians cleansed from their home and property in 3 days (Operation Storm helped by the U.S.). Russia is not completely surrounded by countries which obey NATO and cooperate on sanctions.
I should point out that in the run up to the elections which overthrew Milosevic (probably falsely as ballots were burned by Otpor) that the Russians were threatening to cut off gas to Serbia for debts! So it seemed some Russians were helping the west win its way with Serbia. I mean, Russia just a few months ago forgave billions of debt to Libya, yet during key times in Serbia it helps pile on the pressure to a Serbian government standing valiantly against NATO!
Should point out that Russia went along with the sanctions against Yugoslavia/Serbia during the '90s and it went along with the ICTY court at the Hague. A court which has seen several Serbs die in custody under suspicious circumstances.
As well, Russian weapons and explosives were sent by the plane load to Croats and Muslims. You can blame Yeltsin and corruption, but what were the Russian people doing to try and stop this?
With Putin things are improved so I don't think with one comment of Putin people should throw the baby out with the bathwater.
But let's look forward. What needs to be done is more student exchanges between Russia and Serbia. The west has brainwashed and infested Serbia - it has bought and is in control of Serbia's media. More counteraction and pro-action on Russia's part is needed. More work and team projects between Serbian engineers and inventors and Russians. Far too much the best and brightest Serbs go and work and settle in the west. This includes Serbs who have many patents for their inventions which are used in commercial and military technology. As well more Russian tourists need to visit Serbia, instead of mainly or just Croatia and Montenegro in the Balkans. Serbs as well should visit or vacation Russia in lieu of their usual vacations in Greece, Montenegro, Turkey, etc. for a change.
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Post by pastir on Sept 12, 2008 11:40:42 GMT -5
Yet you don't know what it is to be bombed by NATO night and day for 78 days continuously with no end in sight while it happened. You don't know what it is like to see 100s of thousands of Russians cleansed from their home and property in 3 days (Operation Storm helped by the U.S.). Russia is not completely surrounded by countries which obey NATO and cooperate on sanctions. Why do you defend Orao`s point? Orao says Serbians went through hell so it is OK and understandable they elected Tadic. And that is an incredibly idiotic thing to be saying. First of all Serbians did not go through hell. 3 months of bombing and several years of economic sanctions. Yes it`s pretty bad, but lets be objective. That is not hell. Lets not turn into whiny Westerners where every soldier is a "hero" and every hardship is "hell". It devalues the experiences of other generations that went through far harder stuff. Second of all, it is precisley the people that went through alot that despise Tadic the most. You don`t see DS enthusiasts in Kosovska Mitrovica. You don`t see old pensioneers vote Tadic. And you don`t see the refugees voting for him either. So why do you join Orai in making excuses for the Serbian electorate on the basis of "they went through hell". Thirdly, your knee jerk contrast making between the Russian and Serbian experience is rather silly. Gleb makes a good point, other than the bombing and the fuel shortages the experiences of an average Muscovite and a Belgradian were much the same. Russians had 20 million of their kin seperated from them overnight. Many of them were in fact later exposed to slow motion, stealthy ethnic cleansing. Russia had jihadi Checens blowing up buildings, planes, concerts, WWII veterans marches. A president that was pissing down it`s dignity needlesly. A war where the high-ups were so corrupt and inept 5,000 soldiers died for nothing. Oligarchs stealing all of the means of production... As well, Russian weapons and explosives were sent by the plane load to Croats and Muslims. You can blame Yeltsin and corruption, but what were the Russian people doing to try and stop this? The Russians elected Putin. Serbians elected Tadic. So how can you take the moral high ground against them here? BTW, Croats are Slavs, this is a Slavic board. There is nothing to condemn about Russia selling Croats weaponary. Unless we would be willing to condemn her for selling to Serbs in the same conflict as well. You don't know what it is like to see 100s of thousands of Russians cleansed from their home and property in 3 days (Operation Storm helped by the U.S.). He does not know how it is to see 100,000 Croats ethnically cleansed from Krajina and another 100,000 from Bosanska Posavina by his folks either.  Lets not act too morally outraged. Hypocrisy suits no one. |
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Post by Orao on Sept 12, 2008 11:56:35 GMT -5
Bla bla bla ti si nasao tu prosipati pamet.
Yes, if we are true Serbian nationalists we will be outraged about the selling of weapons to Croats. Just because you are half-Croat doesn't mean anyone else is and will have a soft spot for them.
And secondly if only the Serbs that went through hell are anti-Tadic, so Bosnian Serbs, Croatian Serbs and Kosovo Serbs ...that still leaves the majority of Serbs in Serbia proper (Srbijanci) who didn't go through "hell" and it is then understandable and justifiable that Tadic still has a majority support.
Nista sporno sto je izabran Tadic. Ljudi samo hoce zivot, ugledali se na tebe koji si dupe odvukao u Sloveniju. Prema tome zacepi labrnju.
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Post by pastir on Sept 12, 2008 12:00:51 GMT -5
Just because you are half-Croat doesn't mean anyone else is and will have a soft spot for them. LOL. I am not "half-Croat". I am not "half-happy" when we win a football match. I am fully Croat. |
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Post by Orao on Sept 12, 2008 12:16:11 GMT -5
The Croats must feel proud to have you here defending Serbian Kosovo and condemning Serbia for not choosing the pro-Russian option. Because we all know that Croats generally mourn the loss of Kosovo for Serbs and in every way support Seselj's pro-Russian SRS.
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Post by pastir on Sept 12, 2008 12:30:28 GMT -5
The Croats must feel proud... Who gives a fuck? I speak on Croatia as a Croat, but I speak on Serbia as a Serb. I don`t "condemn Serbia". I just refuse to make excuses for the muppets that would sell it out. And I`m far from "supporting SRS in every way". I support them (and the DSS) only on the issue of Kosovo and the Serbian dignity, but it just happens that is by far the most important issue. |
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Post by balkannj on Sept 12, 2008 12:32:52 GMT -5
Croats were in alliance with the Muslims at the time the Russians were sending plane loads of weapons to a Croat island. The weapons were mainly for the Muslims but Croats skimmed off a share.
As for the Croats who left Krajina - they left to sit out the war. The weren't running to hospitals all injured and bloody and weren't bombed and attacked as they chose to pack and leave.
An American UN worker, Stephanie Bond, was in Croatia throughout the war and says that the Croats who stayed behind in Serb controlled areas were safe from the Serbs - however they were being harassed and threatened by their fellow Croats - with phone calls and such - because they were staying behind.
There was pressure from the Croat government and fellow Croats to leave the areas during the war and most left without a scratch on them. Many of their homes were intact after the war while the Serbs' homes were systematically destroyed by Croats.
The Croat army/police had a way of knowing and marking the homes of Croats and they were spared.
And certainly not all Serbs voted for Tadic - only with a coalition with other parties (including the minorities) was he able to scrape by a bare majority.
Plus I am saying that Russians not helping Serbs made them fall more and more into the wests clutches. When the Serbs needed help through the years the Russians did nothing. So when the Serbs break the Russians find an excuse to wash their hands. When the fact was that the Russians were not helping BEFORE the Serbs fell. For instance in the 16 months after NATO bombing until Milosevic fell the Russians did not help with the rebuilding, hospitals, medical aid, etc for Serbs. Why, they sent more aid to Afghanistan after the 2001 bombings than to Serbia in 1999. Plus the infrastructure damage to Afghanistan was nothing like what happened to Serbia as most of the bombs went into the desert.
Additionally the Croat side was the wests/NATO side. Both U.S. and German intelligence were working with Croatia and the Croats for their own agenda, which is also NATO agenda, which is also on a collision course with Russia.
So helping Croats was leading to eventual increase and power of NATO and nothing to do with Slavic Unity in the big picture.
Here's a quote from mercenary John MacPhee who fought with the HVO and Croatia special forces in his book "The Silent Cry":
"One Croatian supply line route came through one of the many small islands off the Dalmatian coast where a runway had been built to accept covert Russian supplies of weapons (remember the Russians were supposed to be the Serbs’ main allies)."
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Post by pastir on Sept 12, 2008 12:51:32 GMT -5
Plus I am saying that Russians not helping Serbs made them fall more and more into the wests clutches. When the Serbs needed help through the years the Russians did nothing. So when the Serbs break the Russians find an excuse to wash their hands. When the fact was that the Russians were not helping BEFORE the Serbs fell. That makes sense then. Though I do not think Russia wanted to find an excuse to wash her hands. I think offical Russia finally felt in position to do something and was going to help to their limited ability. But Russia hates to make risks and pursue a policy which is too dependant on who rules the country where there is potential for big shifts. So they did not want to openly commit to supporting DSS-SRS. It would mean burning bridges in case of a DS win and they never do that. |
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Lets not act too morally outraged. Hypocrisy suits no one.