Bulgaria, Proto-Bulgarians, FYROM etc.

[boroslav]

Who said you are "less Slavic"?!
It's just that there are no "genetically pure" nations. Today nation means linguistic and cultural group.
Amongst the Slavic peoples a short and pretty slant-eyed man isn't less a member than a tall and middle-european looking one. You know how different Slavs look.

And considering the ProtoBulgars:
Somehow I doubt that the rest of the World would simply adopt Russian propaganda.

You can call me Catholic Serb, no problem.

[vjacheslav]

Here's something about the Chuvash,
www2.ku.edu/~lba/Chuvash_HLA.pdf

show that Russians, Finns, Austrians, Belgians, and Czechs are the populations closest to the Chuvash.

results also show that Chuvash aren't related to altaic peoples n Turkey, that they are very different.

mentions related a bit to iran n caucasus.

I meant not population of countries, but anthropological units - populations and their groups. Russians belong to East-European population, Chuvash and Volga tatars to Uralic population; Checks, Ukrainians, Slovaks, Hungarians, Slovenes and Slavonians to Carpathian group of populations; Bulgarians, Romanians, Moldovians and Bucovina Ukrainians - to Low-Danubian group of populations.

Where are results of Chuvashi being close to Iran and Caucasus?
If I see them, I'll try to explain. But I'm 99% sure of their absense, cause such info is very related with garbage from youtube... no one knows where are the roots of such throlling but it is still popular:)

May be you meant not Iran but Pontic population on North-West Caucasus (Chercesses, Osetians)? Or typological unit - Nord-Iranid (by Lawrence Endgel) from South steppes of Ukraine and Russia? 30% of Tatars really represent it.

I know Chuvashs, cause have some Chuvashian roots. Their anthropological basis is Sub-Uralic and related to Ugric people, of course not Altaic, Middle Asian or Turkish. The majority of Turkish typologically are are Armenoids and Anatolids and Altaic people are Turanids or simply Monoloids, modern Kazakhs are Turanoids, Afgans and Tadjisc are Irano-Fergans (but not Nord-Iranids! These units are totally diferrent).

[TsarSamuil]

Jan 6, 2011 17:29:55 GMT -5 @boroslav said:

Who said you are "less Slavic"?!
It's just that there are no "genetically pure" nations. Today nation means linguistic and cultural group.
Amongst the Slavic peoples a short and pretty slant-eyed man isn't less a member than a tall and middle-european looking one. You know how different Slavs look.

And considering the ProtoBulgars:
Somehow I doubt that the rest of the World would simply adopt Russian propaganda.

You can call me Catholic Serb, no problem.

Ah but they did adopt Russian version, because it was they who wrote Bulgaria's history after Bulgaria emerged from the Ottoman Empire. Russians took it upon themselves to write the history before Bulgarians did, who were more preoccupied with modern history n struggles. The rest of the world simply adopted the Russian version. But today Bulgarians are more than ever interested in their past n Ruski version doesn't hold much water.

So, you are touchy for me criticizing your thread n in the reply above you seem very accepting of central asians, chechens, uzbeks n what not n u welcome them into the Slavic family? Heh...I think this is Yugoslav commie mentality kicking in...so, what do you want? Us to be a Slavic version of America n accept the whole world?

You compare proto-Bulgarians (white) with accepting Mongols (Yellow race)? Mongols are of an alien race. Whether you believe proto-Bulgarians were iranic or not, all agree that they were heavily influenced by the Persians that there is nobody's doubt. This means they come from a 'similar' world as Slavs who were influenced by Sarmatians.
Mongols however come from an entire different reality and they being muslim too, that's two barbaric origins/world-views incompatible with our side of the world.

What are you? A trans-racial nationalist? A nationalist but you speak the same language that communists n liberals do.. the trouble with such grand ideas 'embrace all humanity' is that one gets too seduced with the idea n don't think about the amount one tries to accept.

Even if Russia absorbs a few, trying to absorb too many, well even if they accept Rus church, that doesn't mean it would prevent them from bringing their baggage of their barbaric ways. What's this nonsense about embracing the Altaic horde? I'm sure ex Soviets who have had communist upbringing think it sounds like a good idea. Go down that road and Russian culture will become more Asian and less European, if you convert the Altaic horde. Unless you have an urge to become Asian, better leave these silly ideas alone.

Asians should accept that Russians are European culture n that it has a right to exist, that is what we should demand, not go off on some grand foolish idealistic idon'tknowwhat...

this discussion doesn't belong in this thread.

EDIT: the Altaics are afraid of resurgent persia n china so they might show a 'friendly' face for the time being, but ultimately it's the nature of every group to prosper n strive, not bend to others. Bending someone else becomes harder the bigger group you try to accommodate.
Look at America, accepting in the whole world, but at the end of this century instead of remaining a largely multi-ethnic society (no dominant group) it will become Northern Mexico, if they aren't careful the entire Americas will become Latino.
Multi-ethnic societies don't survive, what they do is give everyone a chance to fight to come up on top. Don't provide someone else with a stage when it's already yours! That's just foolish!
Look at Mongolia, they use Cyrillic n show friendly face to Russia because they are shitscared of China. Altaics are just doing what's convenient for them, doesn't mean if Mongolia would be Orthodox that we would be similar to them. Less alien surely, but still different.

Jan 6, 2011 17:29:55 GMT -5 @boroslav said:

You can call me Catholic Serb, no problem.

This lack of pride from your real identity, Croat, or whatever it would have been, too accepting of taking on other names, is a trademark of liberals n communists.

Don't tell me, you are a Yugo-nostalgic n u love Tito...

[TsarSamuil]

Jan 6, 2011 17:39:47 GMT -5 vjacheslav said:

Where are results of Chuvashi being close to Iran and Caucasus?
If I see them, I'll try to explain. But I'm 99% sure of their absense, cause such info is very related with garbage from youtube... no one knows where are the roots of such throlling but it is still popular:)

Caucasus, mentions Georgians at least twice in the link, but I think 3 times. Mentions Iran too, I'm too tired to go over the website now. Hafta go to bed.

Speaking about Georgia, perhaps I have mentioned it in this thread that Asparukh, first ruler of Danube Bulgaria, name Asparukh is a Georgian version of the Persian, Isperih (white horse rider). Bulgarians use both names.

Yes, Youtube has a lot of garbage.

[boroslav]

Nothing brought us more problems in history than primitive chauvinism. You as Bulgarian may not think so, considering that Bulgaria was Hitler's buddy until it became clear he will lose.

[TsarSamuil]

Ah yes, the Yugo-mentality kicked in... Bulgaria was allied with GERMANY regardless whomever happened to be it's leader. Allied with Germany in ww2 because BG was also allied with them in ww1 for the same reasons, settling territorial issues on the Balkans seen as vital for the survival of our nation. Ww1 n Hitler, two entirely different matters, nothing to do with each other.

Bulgaria n Germany would have been allied in ww2 if Hitler had never been born, because of Balkan issues. Regardless if the German leader had been nationalist, liberal, whatever, as long as it happened to be a great power in opposition to France n UK's foreign policy to carve up n destroy Bulgaria. Our sole aim was to oppose France n UK n accept any great power who would stand in opposition with us. It's a shame that who stood as Germany's leader at the time was even worse than those we fought...

I'm tired of the Hitler card, you sound like some angry minority pulling some card when not having anything to say...

Going to bed, good night! EDIT: n no, I'm not interested in flame wars, I said last year I would stop, so no point in continuing if this is the road we are heading...

[boroslav]

I know it was just a strategic alliance. But this alliance spared your people a lot of shit. That's what I meant.

Good night.

[White Cossack]

Whatever you say Nikolov, Chuvash have nothing to do with Slavs. If you want to associate yourself with them, go ahead. As for the rest of us, they are just another turko-mongol group plaguing Russia.

[sslava]

Sports stars, Marat Safin tennis player & Marat Izmailov football player.
Хм, ну хрен знает. Вообще, якобы читал анализ днк, у татар все же гены отличаются. Вот у русских R1a где-то 55-60 процентов, у поляков столько же кстати. Украинцы по генам ничем не отличаются от русских, которые живут на юге России. Хотя конечно у тех, кто на севере не малая финно угорская примесь, но все равно, короче R1a. А вот у татар другая какая-то группа, среди них R1a не часто встречается, в том числе и в Татарстане. Хотя конечно там сейчас смешение идет, но все равно. Вообще, как читал, в генах у русских на удивление мало всяких татарских и монгольских генов, короче удя по генам, финно угорское нашествие было, а не татаро-монгольское, как сейчас шутят

[TsarSamuil]

Jan 6, 2011 20:03:35 GMT -5 White Cossack said:

Whatever you say Nikolov, Chuvash have nothing to do with Slavs. If you want to associate yourself with them, go ahead. As for the rest of us, they are just another turko-mongol group plaguing Russia.

Think they are a bunch of Bulgar-Finns, these ones are Christian. Tatarstan is both muslim n christian. From Russia's view, I doubt they are seen as a plague, their birth rates aren't high. Chuvashia n Tatarstan have good relationship with Russians, there's no problems I have ever read about. I'd say these people can't be placed in the same category as rabid caucasus n central asian peoples who are barbaric n expansionist muslim.
From what I have read, the muslims in Tatarstan are not very interested in spreading their religion far n wide, they prefer to keep to themselves, but have no problems with Russians, except for other muslims who they seem to think are less developed.

If problems arise in Russia, I doubt Chuvashia will be involved, they are too small n not aggressive enough for such things. They are a non-threat. Same with Tatarstan.

Proto-Bulgarians n descendants n such past is off-topic yep, but I'll keep it in this thread only.

I don't claim we are the same as them today, former Volga Bulgaria started out a bit Finnic or finno-ugric n became more so. A bit of them are muslim, but even those who are Christian are culturally still different from Danube Bulgarians. This is a history thread amongst other things.

[vjacheslav]

accepting of central asians, chechens, uzbeks n what not n u welcome them into the Slavic family?

this idea on Eurasian Union is disgusting. One thing to see Ukrainians in one union with Checks, Slovakians, Bulgarians, Serbs etc., but another - with Kazakhstan, Chechnya etc.

I respect Russians much, but some ideas of their Government seem very far away from understanding of ordinary Ukrainian...

they were heavily influenced by the Persians that there is nobody's doubt.

Hm, when speaking on Iranic influence at protoBulgarians, it is meant not Persians, but Sarmatians, or so-called North Irainans. Their influence at Ukrainian ethnogenesis is nearly the same as at Bulgarian and in anthropology typologically their descedents (as a rule, mixed with Slavs) are called Nord-Iranids, in population theory: Low-Dniepr population in Ukraine, Don-Surska population in Russia and population of North-East areal of Bulgarians. Their influence is spread at other arears from these epicenters.

Examples of probable descedants of Sarmathians among Ukrainians (typologically Nord-Iranids):


Do not confuse with Atlanto-Mediterranians (they are also present especially among Bulgarians, as well among Ukrainians), examples of Latin Americans with Iberian roots:

[vjacheslav]

sslava, you have confused and mixed everything in the world
Accordig to Balanovskyy'08 research Russians have 53,1 % R1a, Polish 57%.
The main difference of Russian is high percentage of N - 12,1%, which is related with Baltic and Finno-Ugric tribes and absent in such content among Ukrainians.

Ukrainians have 4 populations which could be called South-European and only one of them - Low-Dniepr is close to South Russians through common North-Iranian anscestors. The rest three - Carpathian, Prut-Dniestr and Dinaric have no analogues among Russians, as well as the main Central Ukrainian population has only its periphery in Russia - Kurschyna, where descedants of Ukranians live.

Haplogroups of Y-hrom. (paternal line) R1a and N are the main ones in Tatarstan as well.
However, Tatars are very close to Ukrainians under maternal line - mt-DNA.

[White Cossack]

So Russians and Ukrainians don't have much in common?

[vjacheslav]

White Cossak, in USSR Ukrainian anthropologist Dyachenko wrote that all Urainian populations have analogues in Russian, except one of them. Sometimes this statement is used nowadays, however, anthropology and genetics in Ukraine and Russia has developed to a new level.

Russian genetics the past year made conslusion that Ukrainians are closer to each other than to other nations. Ukrainian anthropologist Segeda determined several populations, using works of Dyachenko as well, and fresh information. The results I've mentioned above:

"Ukrainians have 4 populations which could be called South-European and only one of them - Low-Dniepr is close to South Russians through common North-Iranian anscestors. The rest three - Carpathian, Prut-Dniestr and Dinaric have no analogues among Russians, as well as the main Central Ukrainian population has only its periphery in Russia - Kurschyna, where descedants of Ukranians live."

However, Russsians are very close to Belarussians and Polish people.

[White Cossack]

I find this very strange, but I can't argue something I don't understand. How credible is this kind of genetic study nowadays?

When you say 4 South-European populations in Ukraine you mean out of X, or all "different" populations in Ukraine are South-European?

How is it possible that Russians are closer to Polish than Ukrainians?

I think Ukrainians are more mixed and darker than Russians, but there are some Ukrainians and Russians who look the exact same.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.